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Author Topic: Marial Shayok to Virginia  (Read 17132 times)

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2014, 10:23:03 AM »
In my mind in the world of college basketball there is a huge area of grey in between this statement -- essentially crimes can range anywhere from speeding to murder right?

Without facts I personally have no idea where Buzz was on this spectrum - I know some have indicated they have them and some stories that push things further to the right -- but I don't have those facts.  I expect our coach to be competitve and not commit murder -- but my guess is if they are not speeding they are not winning.

Precisely my viewpoint

wadesworld

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2014, 11:22:17 AM »
Fair enough.

Look, I'm not in love with Buzz. I'm just trying to keep Bennett's accomplishments in perspective because there's a lot of love for a guy who has never won a game in the NCAA tournament's second weekend and who couldn't parlay a No. 1 seed into even a regional final.

Again, if Wojo makes only 4 NCAA tournament appearances in 8 years at Marquette, will the consensus here be that he is a great coach?

But you aren't keeping them in perspective. You say Bennet's biggest coaching accomplishment is winning a 2nd round NCAA Tournament game. You must've forgotten this season. I would say that winning the ACC Regular Season and Tournament Championships would be his 2 biggest accomplishments, followed by a National Coach of the Year award, and then a Sweet 16 appearance. You also use a S16 loss as a 1 seed to show his failure, but the reality is they lost to a team who preseason was ranked 2nd, early season was ranked first, then got a 4 seed because they lost games due to injury and were finally healthy come NCAA Tourney time and very well may have won it all (and were picked to by almost every major expert) had they not run into a starving PG who went on to win it all. Is Witchita State a failure for having lost to a team that finally put all of their incredible talent together just in time to make a run to the NCAA Championship despite going undefeated through their conference tournament?

Also, as Chicos loves to say, the starting point matters. If Wojo was coming into MU with the same situation that Bennett was coming into at UVA then yes, we would be happy with 4 NCAA Tournament appearances.
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keefe

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2014, 11:33:29 AM »
Here's one sentence that mentions both Bennett and Buzz in the proper perspective:

Bennett has turned not just one, but two perennial also-rans into NCAA contenders, while Buzz took an NCAA contender and turned it into an also-ran.  

Yep.


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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2014, 11:48:37 AM »
In my mind in the world of college basketball there is a huge area of grey in between this statement -- essentially crimes can range anywhere from speeding to murder right?

Without facts I personally have no idea where Buzz was on this spectrum - I know some have indicated they have them and some stories that push things further to the right -- but I don't have those facts.  I expect our coach to be competitve and not commit murder -- but my guess is if they are not speeding they are not winning.

Unfortunately, that's a rationale that many people come to.  The old adage if "You ain't cheating, you ain't trying."   Which comes with the part you stated, define what that means....thus the gray area.  That's entirely fair and accurate.  To be clear, as I have said countless times here, please don't confuse squirmy with that adage.  That's not what I'm saying.  There are all kinds of things in life that are legal, above board, etc, but still squirmy or leave a bad taste in the mouth. 

However, I don't concur with you that those that "aren't speeding are not winning" because the very nature of that comment is that everyone speeds, because it is considered "minor"...the keeping up with the Jones' argument.  As stated in the prior paragraph, there are some folks that don't care how business is conducted as long as they can say its within the rules, etc.  Not everyone believes that has to be the case, others disagree.  In my view, this is where you see short cuts taken, "exceptions", one-offs (which ironically aren't one-offs), and generally reasons to lower your standards.  It becomes a means to an end and takes on a life of its own.  The vicious circle argument.  "See, we won doing it this way and that's the ONLY way we can continue to win, even if you had to hold your nose".  People lose site that there are, in fact, many ways to win and many ways to conduct business and have success.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #29 on: April 23, 2014, 12:13:39 PM »
x
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 12:36:15 PM by Frenns Liquor Depot »

MU82

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2014, 03:04:39 PM »
But you aren't keeping them in perspective. You say Bennet's biggest coaching accomplishment is winning a 2nd round NCAA Tournament game. You must've forgotten this season. I would say that winning the ACC Regular Season and Tournament Championships would be his 2 biggest accomplishments, followed by a National Coach of the Year award, and then a Sweet 16 appearance. You also use a S16 loss as a 1 seed to show his failure, but the reality is they lost to a team who preseason was ranked 2nd, early season was ranked first, then got a 4 seed because they lost games due to injury and were finally healthy come NCAA Tourney time and very well may have won it all (and were picked to by almost every major expert) had they not run into a starving PG who went on to win it all. Is Witchita State a failure for having lost to a team that finally put all of their incredible talent together just in time to make a run to the NCAA Championship despite going undefeated through their conference tournament?

Also, as Chicos loves to say, the starting point matters. If Wojo was coming into MU with the same situation that Bennett was coming into at UVA then yes, we would be happy with 4 NCAA Tournament appearances.

Buzz won a Big East championship in the final season of what some call the most competitive league ever. Then capped that season by going to the Elite 8, all after going S16-S16 the previous two years.

And now that Buzz has pissed us off, we are saying that accomplishment isn't as good as what Bennett has accomplished. Maybe it is or maybe it isn't, but let's not act like Bennett has done wonders and Buzz was a dud. Crean took over a crap program and got us to the Final Four; what has Bennett done even in the remote neighborhood of that?

As for the situation in which Wojo is coming into vs. Bennett vs. Buzz vs. Crean vs. anybody else ... sense when are most fans logical enough to make that distinction?

Wojo will have his honeymoon period, just as Crean did. But let's see how folks react if he gets to Year 2 or 3, makes the NCAAs and then misses it again the following season. Hell, let's see how fans react if we start 2-3 next season ... damn the honeymoon, logic and perspective!
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #31 on: April 23, 2014, 04:54:52 PM »
Buzz won a Big East championship in the final season of what some call the most competitive league ever. Then capped that season by going to the Elite 8, all after going S16-S16 the previous two years.

And now that Buzz has pissed us off, we are saying that accomplishment isn't as good as what Bennett has accomplished. Maybe it is or maybe it isn't, but let's not act like Bennett has done wonders and Buzz was a dud. Crean took over a crap program and got us to the Final Four; what has Bennett done even in the remote neighborhood of that?

As for the situation in which Wojo is coming into vs. Bennett vs. Buzz vs. Crean vs. anybody else ... sense when are most fans logical enough to make that distinction?

Wojo will have his honeymoon period, just as Crean did. But let's see how folks react if he gets to Year 2 or 3, makes the NCAAs and then misses it again the following season. Hell, let's see how fans react if we start 2-3 next season ... damn the honeymoon, logic and perspective!

The expectations will be lower.  We aren't picked to win the Big East like last year.  Plus we're coming off a poor season in which we made no tournament of any kind which last happened in 2001 I think. 

Too much is put on the advancement in the NCAA tournament.  Play well in the regular season, in your conference, GET to the NCAA tournament and then see where things go.  The crapshoot is too powerful in the NCAA tournament for one to put all those eggs in that basket.  I know fans aren't logical and I don't suspect many will get there anytime soon, but they should.  What you do over the course of 4 months is a much better barometer or who you are as a team and program than what you do in 2 hours on a given day in March.  Stuff happens.

tower912

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #32 on: April 23, 2014, 06:09:52 PM »
So, winning the Big East regular season championship is better than going to the Elite 8.
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wadesworld

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #33 on: April 23, 2014, 06:16:37 PM »
So, winning the Big East regular season championship is better than going to the Elite 8.

Well, if it was, it isn't anymore.
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #34 on: April 23, 2014, 07:40:49 PM »
So, winning the Big East regular season championship is better than going to the Elite 8.

Winning the Big East championship means you beat out 14 other schools (last year) over the course of several months.  Is it better?  I would argue it shows what you did for the long haul.  Let's ask it a different way, if Davidson knocked off MU in the first round, would MU's conference championship be undone, or weakened, or diluted?  What if MU only won one game?  Two NCAA games? 

I've told you guys over the years that I compartmentalize this stuff, it's very easy to do for me.  Win a conference title, play well in the regular season...that is worth something.  I then look at post season as another mini-season.  We're hanging a banner for a Big East championship, we're not for the Elite 8, even though it is incredibly fun and exciting to go that far in the NCAA tournament.  I just don't let one performance (good or bad) cancel out 3 to 4 months of performances.  Others can do as they wish.

keefe

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #35 on: April 23, 2014, 08:37:46 PM »
And now that Buzz has pissed us off, we are saying that accomplishment isn't as good as what Bennett has accomplished. Maybe it is or maybe it isn't, but let's not act like Bennett has done wonders and Buzz was a dud.

It's about effects and right now, intentional or not, MU is not a Tourney caliber program. It is also about starting point and Bennett took over two moribund programs and got them into the Tourney while Bert inherited a senior-laden Tournament team. Finally, it is about the journey. I am guessing that Bennett has run a clean program at UVA which is a prestigious university that truly merits the wreath of Institution. He has likely not cut corners and lowered standards in order to win as was happening at MU.

Are the two coaches comparable? I would argue they are hardly of the same cloth.

 


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MU82

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #36 on: April 23, 2014, 08:41:44 PM »
Let's ask it a different way, if Davidson knocked off MU in the first round, would MU's conference championship be undone, or weakened, or diluted? 

But they didn't. So it's moot.

What if UConn lost their NCAA tourney opener? What if Bobby Knight hugged Neil Reed instead of choking him? What if Rupp recruited black kids?

But none of that stuff happened.

What happened is that Marquette DID beat Davidson.

And what happened was UConn did win the crapshoot last season ... and now there isn't a soul out there -- not an effen soul -- that either remembers or cares what UConn did during the AAC season.
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Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #37 on: April 23, 2014, 08:45:04 PM »
And what happened was UConn did win the crapshoot last season ... and now there isn't a soul out there -- not an effen soul -- that either remembers or cares what UConn did during the AAC season.


But who was the best team last year?

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #38 on: April 23, 2014, 11:47:02 PM »
But they didn't. So it's moot.

What if UConn lost their NCAA tourney opener? What if Bobby Knight hugged Neil Reed instead of choking him? What if Rupp recruited black kids?

But none of that stuff happened.

What happened is that Marquette DID beat Davidson.

And what happened was UConn did win the crapshoot last season ... and now there isn't a soul out there -- not an effen soul -- that either remembers or cares what UConn did during the AAC season.


If MU did lose to Davidson last year, I would have still remembered they won the Big East conference in its final year of it truly being the Big East.  Others, seem to want to throw out anything done in the regular season and all validation is based on what they did in the NCAA tournament.  To each, their own.  You have your way, I have mine.

I tend to value both, but I won't let one destroy the other or put one necessarily too high on a pedestal unless it is magical stuff...Final Four, championship stuff.  Again, to each their own.

I'm glad MU went to an Elite 8 last year and it was very fun to watch us win 3 games.  I'm equally happy that MU won 23 games prior to the NCAA tournament, including a 14-4 record in the Big East to capture that title.  

You can categorize how you wish to view success or failure as you wish....and yes, there are many souls that know what UConn did during the AAC season, including their fan base.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2014, 12:21:00 AM »
Unfortunately, that's a rationale that many people come to.  The old adage if "You ain't cheating, you ain't trying."   Which comes with the part you stated, define what that means....thus the gray area.  That's entirely fair and accurate.  To be clear, as I have said countless times here, please don't confuse squirmy with that adage.  That's not what I'm saying.  There are all kinds of things in life that are legal, above board, etc, but still squirmy or leave a bad taste in the mouth. 

However, I don't concur with you that those that "aren't speeding are not winning" because the very nature of that comment is that everyone speeds, because it is considered "minor"...the keeping up with the Jones' argument.  As stated in the prior paragraph, there are some folks that don't care how business is conducted as long as they can say its within the rules, etc.  Not everyone believes that has to be the case, others disagree.  In my view, this is where you see short cuts taken, "exceptions", one-offs (which ironically aren't one-offs), and generally reasons to lower your standards.  It becomes a means to an end and takes on a life of its own.  The vicious circle argument.  "See, we won doing it this way and that's the ONLY way we can continue to win, even if you had to hold your nose".  People lose site that there are, in fact, many ways to win and many ways to conduct business and have success.

So this obviously begs the question: When we lowered our standards in the D Wade era did you hold your nose and call Tom Crean squirmy? I read the Dodds board in those days - you were an extremely prolific poster there during that period (surprise, surprise) and I don't recall you doing that. I mean, every player MU has had in the Crean/Buzz renaissance has been a qualified student athlete by NCAA standards EXCEPT Dwyane. You must have been horrified but you sure kept it to yourself.

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2014, 06:40:12 AM »
So, winning the Big East regular season championship is better than going to the Elite 8.

Well, if it was, it isn't anymore.

Lol, but not because I in any way disagree.  Things change.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 06:44:36 AM by LittleMurs »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2014, 06:43:24 AM »
In my mind in the world of college basketball there is a huge area of grey in between this statement -- essentially crimes can range anywhere from speeding to murder right?

Without facts I personally have no idea where Buzz was on this spectrum - I know some have indicated they have them and some stories that push things further to the right -- but I don't have those facts.  I expect our coach to be competitve and not commit murder -- but my guess is if they are not speeding they are not winning.

A precious few programs can win without speeding.  My guess Is that MU is counting on Wojo's pedigree to make us one of those programs.  "We'll see", said the Zen Master.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 06:54:17 AM by LittleMurs »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Dawson Rental

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2014, 06:53:33 AM »
But they didn't. So it's moot.

What if UConn lost their NCAA tourney opener? What if Bobby Knight hugged Neil Reed instead of choking him? What if Rupp recruited black kids?

But none of that stuff happened.

What happened is that Marquette DID beat Davidson.

And what happened was UConn did win the crapshoot last season ... and now there isn't a soul out there -- not an effen soul -- that either remembers or cares what UConn did during the AAC season.


UConn fans remember what UConn did during their AAC season.

Just like MU fans remember that MU won a share of the Big East title last year and was in the elite eight.

But being in the elite eight isn't the same as winning the national championship, is it?  I mean, outside of MU fans, how many remember MU was in the elite eight last year without looking it up?

Davidson was far, far closer to beating MU (most thought that they had won) then Bobby Knight ever was to hugging Neil Reed or Rupp was to recruiting African American players.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 06:55:43 AM by LittleMurs »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

The Lens

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2014, 08:12:31 AM »
On top of non Qualifier Wade --- I think we need to really reconsider how we view Crean.

First, he hired a very "squirmy" assistant in Buzz Williams. Then, he paved the way for Buzz to takeover.

How could TC do such a thing?  No regard for the MU brand?  Is TC squirmy?

Hopefully Wojo can clean up this huge mess that TC created. 
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2014, 08:52:17 AM »
UConn fans remember what UConn did during their AAC season.

Just like MU fans remember that MU won a share of the Big East title last year and was in the elite eight.

But being in the elite eight isn't the same as winning the national championship, is it?  I mean, outside of MU fans, how many remember MU was in the elite eight last year without looking it up?

Davidson was far, far closer to beating MU (most thought that they had won) then Bobby Knight ever was to hugging Neil Reed or Rupp was to recruiting African American players.

Agree.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2014, 09:16:32 AM »
On top of non Qualifier Wade --- I think we need to really reconsider how we view Crean.

First, he hired a very "squirmy" assistant in Buzz Williams. Then, he paved the way for Buzz to takeover.

How could TC do such a thing?  No regard for the MU brand?  Is TC squirmy?

Hopefully Wojo can clean up this huge mess that TC created. 


Crean was fired from MU, remember.  He had nothing to do with Buzz getting the HC job. 

The Lens

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2014, 09:19:40 AM »
Crean was fired from MU, remember.  He had nothing to do with Buzz getting the HC job. 

Well played
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MU82

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2014, 09:26:10 AM »
UConn fans remember what UConn did during their AAC season.

Just like MU fans remember that MU won a share of the Big East title last year and was in the elite eight.

But being in the elite eight isn't the same as winning the national championship, is it?  I mean, outside of MU fans, how many remember MU was in the elite eight last year without looking it up?

Davidson was far, far closer to beating MU (most thought that they had won) then Bobby Knight ever was to hugging Neil Reed or Rupp was to recruiting African American players.

OK, I'm done with hypotheticals. Marquette DID beat Davidson and DID go to the Elite Eight. UConn DID win the national title, which is the definition (in my book and, really, in the only book that counts) of ending the season as the No. 1 team in the nation.

I've been party to this silly discussion in the past and I'm mad at myself for being party to it again.
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Marial Shayok to Virginia
« Reply #48 on: April 26, 2014, 02:35:38 PM »
OK, I'm done with hypotheticals. Marquette DID beat Davidson and DID go to the Elite Eight. UConn DID win the national title, which is the definition (in my book and, really, in the only book that counts) of ending the season as the No. 1 team in the nation.

I've been party to this silly discussion in the past and I'm mad at myself for being party to it again.

Al McGuire disagrees with you....so do so many others.