WSJ: John Calipari: NCAA Is Crumbling Like the Soviet Union

[MUSF]

Here's the part that makes me chuckle a bit.  On one end a lot of you guys are saying that these kids aren't really student athletes, that they are just whored out by the schools. They aren't in class enough (the claim goes) and concentrating on the student part. Now you want them to actually whore themselves out, make public appearances to get paid, etc?  Presumably to miss school in the process of doing this. Don't you find that a bit incongruous?

If we play some of the things you guys are advocating for, maybe the universities should get a little something something as well.  I get tired of hearing about the millions the schools are making, because most aren't making squat.  So in the future, if a kid goes to a school, is drafted by the NFL the kid has to pay the school a cut...seems only fair.  The school allowed the kid to be seen by the scouts.  The school put the risk in educating, training, feeding, clothing, sheltering the kid.  If the NBA drafts D-Wade and he makes it, D-Wade has to pay MU....MU took a chance on the kid. 

Is this where we want this go?

There is absolutely no presumption that they would miss school to make appearances.

Your last point sounds like a perfect issue for the NCAA to raise in collective bargaining. Oh, wait...

[TJ]

That doesn't mean that an athlete should not be allowed to get paid for an appearance outside of the school. Why can't a player get paid by a private organization or individual to sign autographs if  isn't on school property and isn't wearing the school's uniform?

Even I can admit that this would be disastrous and lead to rampant corruption and cheating. But the NCAA collectively burying their heads in the sand and doing nothing is going to be disastrous in the end too.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Nothing is free.  Your repeated use of "free" to describe what student athletes receive in return for their efforts underlies our basic disagreement and is disrespectful to the athletes.  The athletes work  hard.  In return for their hard work, they earn tuition, room and board, etc.  The universities do not give them anything for free.  If they decide to stop playing, they would not continue to receive those benefits.  Universities are not charities.  If they didn't feel it was in their best interest to offer those things to the athletes, they wouldn't.

There have been some interesting points on both sides and the more I think about it, the more I believe an olympic model where athletes are able to make money off of their name would be the best way forward.  I find it hard to justify the current policy in the first place.  With the olympic model, the most exceptional student athletes could make a bunch of money.  How much?  Let the market decide.  If some backer wants to pay an athlete $10 million for a commercial for his/her company, fine.  Mediocre players could make a few thousand bucks signing autographs or commercials.  Athletes in non-revenue generating sports wouldn't see much changes (except possibly a decrease in funds as some athletic department donations may be redirected to the athletes).  This would probably further concentrate talent at top programs, but we see plenty of that already.  I'm sure there are plenty of other problems with the olympic model, but it seems more fair to the athletes.

You know what, you are right.  There is no such thing as free and its something I believe in strongly.  You are exactly right.  Very poor choice of words on my part.

There is an exchange for not having to pay for those hard costs.  In my view the benefits far outweigh what they are actually receiving and having to do for those benefits.  The benefits are lifelong while what they have to do to receive those benefits at most is four years and they largely benefit from those actions anyway.

On the Olympic sports and other "market decides" alternatives you are suggesting, you are flat out flying in to the face of TITLE IX law.  Why do you ignore this?  Furthermore, the schools \ NCAA don't have the enforcement capable of regulating it.  The Pandora's box you are suggesting would ruin opportunities and ruin college sports.  For what?  For the 1% you will deny opportunities for 99%? 

[ChicosBailBonds]

You're missing the point. The NCAA should be free to govern the actions of its member schools, but not the individual athletes ability to profit from his own name and likeness outside of the school. If the NCAA doesn't want to give schools an unfair advantage, then they can prevent schools from paying athletes for signatures and appearances. That doesn't mean that an athlete should not be allowed to get paid for an appearance outside of the school. Why can't a player get paid by a private organization or individual to sign autographs if he isn't on school property and isn't wearing the school's uniform?

I'm not missing it all.  I'm not taking about the school paying the athletes, I'm talking about 50,000 Wisconsin alumni with a C Note each paying for an autograph that is worth $1.  I'm talking about 125 Kentucky car dealerships deciding that each Kentucky basketball player will get an appearance fee of $25K to show up at the dealership for 3 hours and no repercussions at all. 

What a great recruiting pitch "hey stud athlete, we can't pay you but this new autograph and appearance policy we can work with. Come to UK and our alumni network will have you making $100K a year while playing here and all you have to do is show up a few times at the dealer showroom'

[ChicosBailBonds]

And you said that membership looks out for its own interest, that being what's best for the universities.

What you seem to be saying in this post is that you think that the players are fairly compensated. Maybe the players don't agree.  Why not let them represent themselves and see what happens?  If you're right and everything is fair then nothing will change except making the players feel heard.  No harm in that, right?

And you keep bringing this back to paying players.  Its been a few days since I read the article, but most of the proposed reforms have nothing to do with direct payments to players.  Maybe if the NCAA and its member institutions we're so inflexible about some common sense reforms then they could take some of the steam out of the movement.  But alas...

You will never get everyone to agree. Read the comments of the Northwestern football players the last two weeks.  Those interviewed, about 1/2 have said they will vote no because they feel the are treated very fairly.  In today's millenial world, I'm surprised it wasn't lower.

Let me ask you this TJ, you give in and what happens 3 years from now?  You think 100% of them are going to feel they are treated fairly?  5 years from now?  10 years from now?

Give an inch, they want a mile. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

There is absolutely no presumption that they would miss school to make appearances.

Your last point sounds like a perfect issue for the NCAA to raise in collective bargaining. Oh, wait...

But but but but but I hear the same argument about practice time.  All that practice keeps them away from schooling.  It doesn't, the argument is that they could be studying or doing homework, etc, but they are "forced" to practice.   So if they are at an appearance instead of studying, hitting the books, what's the difference?

That's why the argument they make about this is BS.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Even I can admit that this would be disastrous and lead to rampant corruption and cheating. But the NCAA collectively burying their heads in the sand and doing nothing is going to be disastrous in the end too.

Are they burying their heads in the sand, or are they limited to what they can regulate and enforce?

And yet you guys want to put a force multiplier in there and make it 10X worse with what you are asking.  Be careful what you wish for...I don't think the membership is this stupid to adopt what some of you are asking for, but they'll adopt some things just so they can feel warm and fuzzy at night and pretend they did something.  Most likely, what they will do will make matters worse.   I'm looking forward to see if this goes to the extremes where the support grows for certain benefits and it leads to outright shutdown of some programs or sports.  It will be like watching the unions in corporate America that kept pushing, kept telling themselves that there is no way they won't give in to us and then the pink slips arrive and they stand there in shock.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Tugg Speedman]

And you said that membership looks out for its own interest, that being what's best for the universities.

What you seem to be saying in this post is that you think that the players are fairly compensated. Maybe the players don't agree.  Why not let them represent themselves and see what happens?  If you're right and everything is fair then nothing will change except making the players feel heard.  No harm in that, right?

And you keep bringing this back to paying players.  Its been a few days since I read the article, but most of the proposed reforms have nothing to do with direct payments to players.  Maybe if the NCAA and its member institutions we're so inflexible about some common sense reforms then they could take some of the steam out of the movement.  But alas...

+1 homerun

Chicos, you have gone and on for pages moralizing about the current system.  The players disagree with you and are ready to vote on a union at Northwestern.  Calipari disagrees with you in the article above.  Jay Bilas disagrees with you.  Even the NCAA disagrees with you and said it will change, just not how.

So just admit you hold an extreme view that is not shared by those that are directly impacted by college sports.

[ChicosBailBonds]

+1 homerun

Chicos, you have gone and on for pages moralizing about the current system.  The players disagree with you and are ready to vote on a union at Northwestern.  Calipari disagrees with you in the article above.  Jay Bilas disagrees with you.  Even the NCAA disagrees with you and said it will change, just not how.

So just admit you hold an extreme view that is not shared by those that are directly impacted by college sports.

-1...dribbler in front of the box, the catcher throws you out by 65 feet.

I hold an extreme view on this?  Right now 1/2 the Northwestern football players share my view...50-50....yup, I'm extreme on this.  LOL   http://colorlines.com/archives/2014/04/northwestern_football_players_face_steep_climb_to_union.html

If Coach C disagrees with me, don't I get into heaven automatically?  Don't I get a moral badge for that...I'm certainly taking it that way.

Show me where the NCAA disagrees with me when the head of the NCAA flat out said they disagree with the unionization and what it could mean.  http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2014/04/06/mark-emmert-ncaa-structure-presidents-press-conference-unionization-labor/7382025/

You might want to recalibrate your post and put a few facts in there.

[MarquetteDano]

I think it would be funny if the NCAA just gave up basketball and football overnight so those poor student athletes could be freed up by the Soviet Union.

I am sure for-profit leagues would sprout up everywhere and these kids would be making millions.  

[MUSF]

But but but but but I hear the same argument about practice time.  All that practice keeps them away from schooling.  It doesn't, the argument is that they could be studying or doing homework, etc, but they are "forced" to practice.   So if they are at an appearance instead of studying, hitting the books, what's the difference?

That's why the argument they make about this is BS.

Nothing in this post accurately reflects my argument. A player can decide what to do with his own free time. You originally said that the athletes would presumably miss school, not study time. I explained that it wouldn't interfere with school, at which point you decided to attack another argument that I never even made.

[MUSF]

I'm not missing it all.  I'm not taking about the school paying the athletes, I'm talking about 50,000 Wisconsin alumni with a C Note each paying for an autograph that is worth $1.  I'm talking about 125 Kentucky car dealerships deciding that each Kentucky basketball player will get an appearance fee of $25K to show up at the dealership for 3 hours and no repercussions at all. 

What a great recruiting pitch "hey stud athlete, we can't pay you but this new autograph and appearance policy we can work with. Come to UK and our alumni network will have you making $100K a year while playing here and all you have to do is show up a few times at the dealer showroom'

But wait, you keep reminding us that the NCAA is an association of schools. So, blame the schools and hold them accountable. The NCAA can make and enforce rules to prevent the schools from using outside benefits in the ways you describe.

[ChicosBailBonds]

But wait, you keep reminding us that the NCAA is an association of schools. So, blame the schools and hold them accountable. The NCAA can make and enforce rules to prevent the schools from using outside benefits in the ways you describe.

Right...LOL.  Hold the schools accountable.  How do you suggest that happen.  This, I would love to hear.  Are you going to have an NCAA investigator assigned to more than 1,000 NCAA schools?  Please.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The fact that athletes can't use their own name or likeness to earn money is even more egregious than the jersey sales. How can the NCAA prevent athletes from getting paid for appearances or autograph signings that don't occur on a college campus or have any connection to the school or NCAA?

How can you separate the two?  Would these kids be getting asked for an autograph for which you think they are entitled payment if they DID NOT PLAY FOR A SPORT SPONSORED BY THE NCAA?  Of course not.

The connection is already there and the notoriety, etc, that the student athletes are getting is derived from the fact they play in a NCAA sponsored sport.  Damn right they can prevent it, it is their rules.  Don't like it, go play somewhere else and see how in demand your autograph is.   

By the way, show me where the NCAA is selling autographs of players.  They're not (nor am I implying that you say they are), so how is the NCAAs stance even at issue?   The NCAA isn't selling autographs and they don't allow the student athletes to do so.  Pretty simple. 

[brandx]

How can you separate the two?  Would these kids be getting asked for an autograph for which you think they are entitled payment if they DID NOT PLAY FOR A SPORT SPONSORED BY THE NCAA?  Of course not.

I would have to assume you are against NFL players selling their autographs as well - since they PLAY FOR A SPORT SPONSORED BY THE NFL.

Chicos, you doth protest way too much. How many posts is it now just in this thread decrying any money going to the have-nots despite all the work they do and the massive injury threats they constantly face.

We could go through hundreds of threads here and probably never once find one where you choose the side with less power or less money. A constant refrain for you. You give anecdotes for everything to show how fair life is. Well, it isn't.

[MUSF]

Right...LOL.  Hold the schools accountable.  How do you suggest that happen.  This, I would love to hear.  Are you going to have an NCAA investigator assigned to more than 1,000 NCAA schools?  Please.

Like you say, it's an association of schools. If you can argue that the schools have the power to change the system in one area, why don't they have the ability to change it in another? Instead, they make rules that protect schools from themselves at the expense of the athletes. Sounds fair.

[MUHoopsFan2]

How can you separate the two?  Would these kids be getting asked for an autograph for which you think they are entitled payment if they DID NOT PLAY FOR A SPORT SPONSORED BY THE NCAA?  Of course not.

The connection is already there and the notoriety, etc, that the student athletes are getting is derived from the fact they play in a NCAA sponsored sport.  Damn right they can prevent it, it is their rules.  Don't like it, go play somewhere else and see how in demand your autograph is.   

By the way, show me where the NCAA is selling autographs of players.  They're not (nor am I implying that you say they are), so how is the NCAAs stance even at issue?   The NCAA isn't selling autographs and they don't allow the student athletes to do so.  Pretty simple. 

The connection is already there and the notoriety, etc, that the student athletes are getting is derived from the fact they play in a NCAA sponsored sport.  Damn right they can prevent it, it is their rules.  Don't like it, go play somewhere else and see how in demand your autograph is.   

By the way, show me where the NCAA is selling autographs of players.  They're not (nor am I implying that you say they are), so how is the NCAAs stance even at issue?   The NCAA isn't selling autographs and they don't allow the student athletes to do so.  Pretty simple. 


[/quote]If they go play somewhere else then no one in the NCAA would be getting dime, because no one would go to games.

Don't sell their jerseys or their likenesses then. They should get a cut from it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

This is a certainty, just as much as gay marriage or legalized mary jane was a certainty 5-10 years ago.

This just hit the wires from Harvard study in the last hour....people are fighting it for many reasons, one of them being just pure health concerns.  Just because some people want it legalized doesn't mean it is the right thing to do or those opposing it are dinosaurs.  Potentially permanent impacts


http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-04-casual-marijuana-linked-brain-abnormalities.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/legal-pot/marijuana-re-shapes-brains-users-study-claims-n81126

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/04/15/casual-marijuana-use-linked-with-brain-abnormalities-study-finds/

[keefe]

This is a certainty, just as much as gay marriage or legalized mary jane was a certainty 5-10 years ago.

A new initiative launched in Olympia

[klyrish]

A new initiative launched in Olympia

HAHAHAHAHAHA

[willie warrior]

You know what? Reading these posts is very enlightening. Just a few simple questions.

How may people on this board have extensive experience dealing with unions, a wide variety, in a wide variety of locales, negotiating contracts and grievance procedure through arbitration, federal lawsuits, and NLRB charges? Probably not too many, but for those that have, have you ever seen a union that really does not represent its members, tells lies whenever it is convenient, and does not really give a damn about the public welfare?

Foe those that have and answered yes, that is what the real world is. For those that answered no, you are living in a fantasy world.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

This just hit the wires from Harvard study in the last hour....people are fighting it for many reasons, one of them being just pure health concerns.  Just because some people want it legalized doesn't mean it is the right thing to do or those opposing it are dinosaurs.  Potentially permanent impacts


http://medicalxpress.com/news/2014-04-casual-marijuana-linked-brain-abnormalities.html

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/legal-pot/marijuana-re-shapes-brains-users-study-claims-n81126

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2014/04/15/casual-marijuana-use-linked-with-brain-abnormalities-study-finds/

Cigarettes, beer, whiskey, McDonald's, Mtn. Dew, etc are all bad too !!!  Marijuana just has a worse social stigma with the older generation and conservatives.  Alcohol is the worst of the bunch.  Insert argument here ____________. 

[Tugg Speedman]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/15/bill-o-reilly-tries-to-enlist-kentucky-s-basketball-coach-in-bashing-blacks.html

[MUSF]

Cigarettes, beer, whiskey, McDonald's, Mtn. Dew, etc are all bad too !!!  Marijuana just has a worse social stigma with the older generation and conservatives.  Alcohol is the worst of the bunch.  Insert argument here ____________. 

Ugh, I'm agreeing with Deane.

Spot on.

[LloydMooresLegs]

ncaa approved unlimited food for athletes today - addresses one of the common complaints - probably the most common sense and easiest to address (along with some of the post game travel rules)