2014 MLB Thread & Pissing Match

[wadesworld]

Strange season.  Seems like every division has a team that looked like solid playoff contenders that really lost ground in the 2nd half (Blue Jays, Tigers, A's, Braves, Brewers, Giants, though it looks like the Tigers, A's and Giants are going to hang on at least for the wild card game).

My condolences to you Brewers fans.  No worse or more helpless sports fan feeling than than when your baseball team seems to lose a game in the standings every day in late August/September. 

Congrats to Chico's for the Angels. 

If I had to pick a World Series I'd say Angels-Nats, with the Orioles and Dodgers as best alternatives.  Angels-Dodgers or Nats-O's would be great area grudge matches.  There's even an outside chance of an A's-Ginats Series.  Not to start another 5 page argument, the baseball playoffs are a real crapshoot because of the nature of the sport, and once you get to the postseason, everybody has a pretty good chance.

I'll pick the A's vs. the Dodgers.  Might be my heart picking it and not my head.  Post season success comes down to who has the best 4 man rotation first and who can get the key hit second.

Buccos are hot but I don't see them doing a lot.  Injuries have to catch up with the Orioles at some point, right?  Tigers have the pitching to get it done but not sure who beyond Cabrera will get a big hit.  Nationals are all around just a good team, I just don't like them.

[GGGG]

Olbermann on Jeter. 

http://deadspin.com/keith-olbermann-takes-a-big-ol-poo-on-derek-jeter-1638319731

A little harsh but...yeah...

[CTWarrior]

A little harsh but...yeah...

A little?  Way too harsh.  Sure Jeter is overrated, the same way Ripken was in Baltimore and Puckett was in Minnesota and Gwynn was in San Diego and Ortiz is in Boston.  Of course the media gushing over him is over the top.  He's a first ballot Hall of Famer who played for great teams throughout a 20 year career in New York City who had some iconic moments in some very big games.  He is the perfect storm of excessive hyping.  But all that hype is still grounded in the fact that he was a great player.  (Just perhaps not as great as he's being made out to be.)

[MU B2002]

Fitting finale to the MVP season for Kershaw.  11ks, 0 bb, a triple, a web gem, NL West clincher over the giants.

[🏀]

A little?  Way too harsh.  Sure Jeter is overrated, the same way Ripken was in Baltimore and Puckett was in Minnesota and Gwynn was in San Diego and Ortiz is in Boston.  Of course the media gushing over him is over the top.  He's a first ballot Hall of Famer who played for great teams throughout a 20 year career in New York City who had some iconic moments in some very big games.  He is the perfect storm of excessive hyping.  But all that hype is still grounded in the fact that he was a great player.  (Just perhaps not as great as he's being made out to be.)

However, statistics deem him to not be a 'great' player. A good player at best.

He's not a first ballot hall of famer if had the same career in any other city. Hell, he wouldn't have played this long in any other city.

[CTWarrior]

However, statistics deem him to not be a 'great' player. A good player at best.

He's not a first ballot hall of famer if had the same career in any other city. Hell, he wouldn't have played this long in any other city.

I would say you are wrong on all counts.  Not sure what statistics you're looking at. 
3,461 hits (6th all-time)
1,922 runs (10th all-time)
.309 Lifetime batting average
95.2 Offensive WAR (20th all-time) - He actually has negative defensive WAR (meaning he was below a replacement level defensive SS), which is the biggest knock against him.

He was still supplying well above average offensive value for a shortstop in 2011 (.297) and 2012 (.316, 99 runs, led MLB with 216 hits).  He was hurt most of 2013, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a team that wouldn't have let him play and play a lot this season if it were one of their guys.  Look at the last seasons of other Hall of Famers.  Pretty much all of them were below average players their last season or two.  Jeter hasn't hung on longer after losing productivity than most players of his stature.  The Yankees let him stay at SS too long, I'll grant you that.

Anyway, all of the above would make him a no-doubt first ballot Hall of Famer regardless of where he played.  I would like to point out that I am a Red Sox fan and as such I pretty much hate Derek Jeter.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I would say you are wrong on all counts.  Not sure what statistics you're looking at. 
3,461 hits (6th all-time)
1,922 runs (10th all-time)
.309 Lifetime batting average
95.2 Offensive WAR (20th all-time) - He actually has negative defensive WAR (meaning he was below a replacement level defensive SS), which is the biggest knock against him.

He was still supplying well above average offensive value for a shortstop in 2011 (.297) and 2012 (.316, 99 runs, led MLB with 216 hits).  He was hurt most of 2013, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a team that wouldn't have let him play and play a lot this season if it were one of their guys.  Look at the last seasons of other Hall of Famers.  Pretty much all of them were below average players their last season or two.  Jeter hasn't hung on longer after losing productivity than most players of his stature.  The Yankees let him stay at SS too long, I'll grant you that.

Anyway, all of the above would make him a no-doubt first ballot Hall of Famer regardless of where he played.  I would like to point out that I am a Red Sox fan and as such I pretty much hate Derek Jeter.

Another stat, is you can add him to the top 100 list in doubles.

Good to see Yankee & Red Sox fans can come to an agreement from time-to-time.  Fans who think he's not a hall-of-famer is code for wish he was "my" shortstop for the last 19 seasons. 
People often overlook another HOF criteria - how does a player match up to others who played the same position.  By that measure the statistics of pretty much all shortstops in the HOF will not look as good as Jeter's.     

[🏀]

Compare him to the era he played in, he's a good player.

Keep the counting stats.

Runs? Really, runs? Worthless stat.

[CTWarrior]

Compare him to the era he played in, he's a good player.

Keep the counting stats.

Runs? Really, runs? Worthless stat.

Huh?  Runs are worthless, except for the part where the team that scores the most runs wins.  Here are the all-time leaders in runs scored:

1 - Rickey Henderson
2 - Ty Cobb
3 - Barry Bonds
4 (tie) - Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth
6 - Pete Rose
7 - Willie Mays
8 - Cap Anson
9 - Stan Musial
10 - Derek Jeter

On second though you're right, no correlation betweens runs scored and being a quality player.

He is 20th all-time in offensive WAR, a context neutral stat.  In fact he is 4th in his era behind only Barry Bonds and A-Rod (who are steroids guys), and Rickey Henderson

He is first in his era in hits and 2nd to Henderson in runs.  He is 7th in batting average among active players, two of whom (Cano and Votto) will very likely end up below him.

[🏀]

The offensive player has no bearing on the Run stat, it's a situational statistic that shouldn't ever be used to judge a player.

Career WAR is not context neutral as it is a counting stat.

Compare him to his era - Jeter was top ten in WAR twice in 20 years.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Forget Jeter, as a Sox fan im really going to miss Konerko. For the first time I got to that age where my favorite players that I grew up watching are retiring.

[GGGG]

Good to see Yankee & Red Sox fans can come to an agreement from time-to-time.  Fans who think he's not a hall-of-famer is code for wish he was "my" shortstop for the last 19 seasons.

You said this earlier this year, and I think you are way off base here.  If anything, Yankee fans have way overvalued him and have become blinded enough that they can't see what the statistics are saying.  (And don't give me accumulation stats...that just means they played a long time.)

Now let me say that my team (the Brewers) had its Jeter.  Robin Yount.  Yount played 20 years for the same team.  Yount had a higher career WAR.  Jeter was slightly better offensively.  Yount was much better defensively.  Unlike Jeter, Yount was twice considered the best player in the league.  (Playing two completely different defensive positions.)  Also unlike Jeter, Yount toiled away on some pretty bad teams and in Milwaukee.

If Robin Yount came to the Yankees when Jeter did, there would have been no difference whatsoever.  They are essentially the same player.  (Molitor might actually be the better comparison but still...)

Robin Yount was a first ballot Hall of Famer.  Jeter should be too.  However Robin Yount didn't get this completely undeserved over-the-top retirement treatment that Yount did.  Yankee fans have trouble keeping this stuff in context.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I found this. 

Derek Jeter vs. Hall of Fame shortstops

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/derek-jeter-vs-hall-of-fame-shortstops-1.8899728

Updated July 29, 2014 12:49 PM
By PHIL D'ABBRACCIO

Derek Jeter will retire at the end of the 2014 season. How will his career numbers compare with the 23 Hall of Famers who played at least 500 games at shortstop? Using a cumulative ranking of the players' career WAR, batting average, home runs, on-base percentage and stolen bases compared to one another's, here is how they stack up, in true countdown order. (Players were ranked 1-24 based on their stats in each category, then we added up all the rankings.)

[CTWarrior]

Robin Yount was a first ballot Hall of Famer.  Jeter should be too.  However Robin Yount didn't get this completely undeserved over-the-top retirement treatment that Yount did.  Yankee fans have trouble keeping this stuff in context.

Agree with this point.  Ripken got similar treatment, though.  The big differences between Jeter and Yount with respect to their farewell seasons are

1.  The difference between playing for the Yankees and the Brewers (Yankees with much larger fan base, plus they are hated by people who aren't their fans.  So most baseball fans are vested in the Yanks one way or the other.  Who really hates the Brewers?)
2.  Jeter played in the postseason every friggin' year and generally played quite well (and won a lot early in his career which is the time people form their opinion of players), which exposed him to a much wider audience.  Five championships for Jeter vs none for Yount.  Now we know that says more about their respective teammates than it says about the players themselves, but America does love a winner.

Also, I wouldn't go overboard with WAR.  There are two competing WAR calculations and they can disagree wildly with regards to defense, which is Yount's advantage over Jeter.  While I think students of the game basically understand the elements of offense, most experts don't completely trust defensive metrics.  They vary wildly from one season to the next, much greater than offensive stats do, while intuitively you would think that a players defensive ability would be more consistent than his offensive ability.  To be fair, Jeter is so consistently poorly rated by everybody who attempts to rate defense that it is nearly impossible to figure a way that he was not a poor SS.  It can't all be park effects or pitchers tendencies.

[GGGG]

I found this. 

Derek Jeter vs. Hall of Fame shortstops

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/derek-jeter-vs-hall-of-fame-shortstops-1.8899728

Updated July 29, 2014 12:49 PM
By PHIL D'ABBRACCIO

Derek Jeter will retire at the end of the 2014 season. How will his career numbers compare with the 23 Hall of Famers who played at least 500 games at shortstop? Using a cumulative ranking of the players' career WAR, batting average, home runs, on-base percentage and stolen bases compared to one another's, here is how they stack up, in true countdown order. (Players were ranked 1-24 based on their stats in each category, then we added up all the rankings.)

LOL.

Of *course* that is what a New York newspaper would do.  Make up some sort of metric that makes Jeter look good and rank them accordingly...but make sure that Honus Wagner is ranked first in order to not look like complete homers.

There are two major problems with this.  The first, and the most significant, is that the only portion of the metric that touches on defense at all is WAR.  The rest are all offensive categories.  Second, is that there is an overlap between these categories.  Why use batting average AND on-base percentage?  Why use home runs but not slugging percentage?  And stolen bases?  Cmon...

Jeter ranks about 7th all time in WAR for the shortstop position.  (That is if you classify Yount as a SS and use his career stats.)  That's about right.  A sure fire Hall of Famer.  BTW, he will be the only SS in the HOF with a negative defensive WAR.

[wadesworld]

Random question/thought.  Is there anywhere I can go to find out what percentage of an MLB team's runs are scored by the home run?  I can't imagine anybody's is higher than the Brewers in Doug Melvin's time as the GM.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Forget Jeter, as a Sox fan im really going to miss Konerko. For the first time I got to that age where my favorite players that I grew up watching are retiring.

Pretty solid dude as well....on the human being side....at least with my interactions. He's no AJ Pierzynski, that's for sure.

[buckchuckler]

However, statistics deem him to not be a 'great' player. A good player at best.

He's not a first ballot hall of famer if had the same career in any other city. Hell, he wouldn't have played this long in any other city.

Youngest player to 3000 hits?  At a premium defensive position (not saying he was an elite defender, but he stuck in the middle).  Just that combo would likely make him a first ballot HOFer.  Even if he played for the Royals. 

[buckchuckler]

Forget Jeter, as a Sox fan im really going to miss Konerko. For the first time I got to that age where my favorite players that I grew up watching are retiring.

Yeah, Paulie had a great career and a was a great citizen his entire career.  He is just so mild mannered, he isn't really garnering any attention.  Just like his career. 

I was at game 2 when he hit that Slam.  Best moment of my sports fan life.  Topping Wade's triple double.  It was unreal.  Just unreal. 

[shiloh26]

However, statistics deem him to not be a 'great' player. A good player at best.

He's not a first ballot hall of famer if had the same career in any other city. Hell, he wouldn't have played this long in any other city.

He might not have played shortstop this long in another city.  But he was a very good offensive player no less than 2 years ago.  Say the Yankees moved him off shortstop five years ago.  His bat was good enough to stick, even with a move to second, the corner outfield or DH to help cover his lost ground. 

And, just IMHO, anyone who sticks long enough and is talented enough to collect 3,000 hits is almost by definition a first-ballot HOFer. 

[buckchuckler]

And Jeter gets a walkoff hit in his last game at Yankee stadium.  Like him or not, you gotta admit the guy has a flare for the dramatic. 

[NavinRJohnson]

However, statistics deem him to not be a 'great' player. A good player at best.

He's not a first ballot hall of famer if had the same career in any other city. Hell, he wouldn't have played this long in any other city.

Seriously. Wow. At least you're being objective.

Haters gonna hate!

[tower912]

Jeter will get into the HOF on the First Ballot.    Bank it.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

And Jeter gets a walkoff hit in his last game at Yankee stadium.  Like him or not, you gotta admit the guy has a flare for the dramatic. 

Hollywood could not have scripted that any better.

[Spotcheck Billy]

The Commissioner's office Hollywood could not have scripted that any better.

fixed