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Author Topic: Retrospect  (Read 7626 times)

MUCam

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Retrospect
« on: October 15, 2007, 10:16:26 PM »
As I was sitting here, waiting on the (hopefully good) news on Iman, I began thinking what a great last eight years its been.

Who would have thought eight years ago that this program would be where it is today. We are talking about possibly landing a top 25 recruit. We have 3 players in the NBA, including the extremely recognizable talent that is D. Wade. We have at least a couple more potential NBA players on the current roster. Every year, we are becoming more and more involved in major recruiting battles. We have moved to (arguably) the best conference in basketball and had success to boot. The AL is magnificent. Like it or not, we have one of the most recognizable faces in NCAA Basketball heading our team. We are generally considered a consensus top 15 pre-season team. Remember when just being ranked was a joy? And these are just the things that come to the top of my head.

This post isn't meant to be a pro-Crean post, or an anti-Deane/anti-O'Neill/anti-anything pre-Crean post. In fact, if my memory serves me well, we had just as many players drafted in the NBA in the eight years prior to Crean's arrival as we have had in the eight years since Crean arrived. Furthermore, there haven't too many games that have been more disturbing than the losses to Louisville (by 49!!!), Western Michigan, or last year to MSU. Injuries were clearly a factor, but excuses are for the weak and those teams were not well prepared. That said, no matter how much one may wish, you cannot disassociate the recent successes from Tom Crean.

What this post is meant to be is one fan's retrospect into how far this program has come. Only the truly blind (and / or biased) cannot see how far we have come.

Shumpert or no Shumpert, what a great time it is to be a MU fan.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2007, 10:18:56 PM by MUCam »

tomcrean4pres

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2007, 11:15:34 PM »
Awesome post... I completely agree... If shumpert were to commit i think we could even take another step forward I don't think we have reached our peak quite yet but that could just be wishful thinking...
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Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2007, 07:56:25 AM »
Nice post.

Pretty level headed and accurate.

There are "fans" who dislike Crean, and not matter what he accomplishes, they will take shots at him.

Like I've said so many times before... He (Crean) is not perfect, but he has done a heck of a job reviving the MU program. To use a bad analogy, if MU was a stock, it has been trending up over the past 8 seasons and is reaching sustained highs that it hasn't seen since the 70's.

Schools that were on a similar plain as MU 10 years ago (Depaul, SJU, Xavier, Charlotte, Dayton, St. Joe's, Temple, etc.) would kill to have the type of success MU has had. We could easily still be toiling away in CUSA if all of the dominoes hadn't fallen correctly (starting with hiring Crean).

I don't think you will see many responses to your post from the anti-Crean faction because you have used common sense and facts to support your position. They will not be able to dispute the facts. The program is better now then when Crean arrived. Period.



Harrison

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 08:14:17 AM »
Well I guess I will take the challenge since I am often labeled a Crean hater.  I agree with the posts, I think much of people's issues with Crean are that he is given credit for everything, some of which people feel is undeserved.  My personal pet peeve is, as is done on the Scout board ad nauseum when not talking about the University of Wisconsisn, is giving credit to Crean for MU going to the Big East.  That is simply not the case.  Mu had been discussed as a possible BE team for 25 years, to give the credit to Crean would be akin to giving the Credit to Dave Laito at Depaul.  Al deserves more credit than Crean.  Does Crean's revitalizing the program deserve some credit? But let's not forget MU had been to 2 NCAA's in the 4 years previous to Crean we were not in the absolute dump like a So. FLa or something.  A long list of reasons that Mu was attractive to the Big East. I think that is what irks some that Crean is considered by some as bigger than the program, MU was a wonderful program before Crean and will be after, he is a steward. Some people seem to have forgotten that.  I will say though that in agreement with the above posts his stewardship has been better than average.  Obviously McGuire is at the top, not only did he accomplish way more but he built the program, right now I would put Crean on par with, Raymonds, Oneill, who had a much more difficult job than Crean, and Nagle 

PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2007, 08:39:59 AM »
It's not that he's a poor coach, it's just that his personality makes it very difficult to root for him, which is tough to admit as an ardent MU fan.



Avenue Commons

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2007, 08:48:55 AM »
Part of the fun of being a fan is choosing who you root for and who you don't root for. If someone doesn't like MU's current/past/future coach, that's their perogative.

As for it being a great time to be a Marquette fan, I totally agree. I only saw the videos, but Marquette Madness looked awesome.
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mu_hilltopper

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2007, 08:56:44 AM »
It's not that he's a poor coach, it's just that his personality makes it very difficult to root for him, which is tough to admit as an ardent MU fan.
That's really a minority opinion.  The vast vast majority root for him BECAUSE of his personality.  He's nothing but eagerly friendly to fans, and 99% fawn over him.    I guess everyone else is wrong about him, right?

The Lens

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2007, 08:59:58 AM »
Nice post.

Pretty level headed and accurate.

There are "fans" who dislike Crean, and not matter what he accomplishes, they will take shots at him.


Well as Harrison says below he is given credit for everything and to that end; blame for nothing.  In March it will be 5 years since our last NCAA win.  He has done a magical job getting us pub & respect on the nat'l media scene but at the end of the day it's been 5 years since we won an NCAA game.  And don't give me TD's injuries b/c then I'll give you Hutch's & Lovette's injuries in '98 and start saying Deane-o had 3 NCAA's.  The pre conf tourney wins are awesome and the regular season wins are spectacular but our operating budget suggests that we should be doing more than just generating great press and befriending Seth Davis.  

I have a feeling this is the year...hope I'm right.

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PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2007, 09:00:52 AM »
That may be true of the people in your circles, but there are many people in the opposite camp.

Coobeys Oil Depot

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2007, 09:23:22 AM »
That may be true of the people in your circles, but there are many people in the opposite camp.


We should put a running poll on the top of the page through the season, 2 choices:

A) Even though I'm an ardent MU fan, Crean's personality makes it tough for me to root for him.

B) I am an ardent MU fan and Crean's personality makes me root even more for his success.

Certainly the people on these boards are some of the most extreme MU fans out there, whether it be insanely positive and rosy or insanely negative and gloomy. Seems like it'd be an interesting breakdown.

Harrison

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2007, 09:49:14 AM »
I also think much of it has to do with the lack of March success the first round flame outs and the number of times his team's have appeared to have absolutely no idea what was going on ( tournament and regular season) has been questionable at times. The number of times MU has been flat out blown out in Crean's tenure has got to be more than Oneill and Deane combined.  I personally think he over caoches and has very poor basketball intuition.  Exellent preparation but if the script fails watch out.  Of course, I have just touched a few of his weak points, he has a tremendous number of strengths which obviously combined outweigh the weaknesses and as a result have risen the program. 

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2007, 10:38:07 AM »
Nice post.

Pretty level headed and accurate.

There are "fans" who dislike Crean, and not matter what he accomplishes, they will take shots at him.


Well as Harrison says below he is given credit for everything and to that end; blame for nothing. In March it will be 5 years since our last NCAA win.  He has done a magical job getting us pub & respect on the nat'l media scene but at the end of the day it's been 5 years since we won an NCAA game.  And don't give me TD's injuries b/c then I'll give you Hutch's & Lovette's injuries in '98 and start saying Deane-o had 3 NCAA's.  The pre conf tourney wins are awesome and the regular season wins are spectacular but our operating budget suggests that we should be doing more than just generating great press and befriending Seth Davis. 

I have a feeling this is the year...hope I'm right.

Go MU!

I don't think that's true (the bolded part).

In most cases the coach gets too much credit and too much blame. MU has lost some tourney games, but tourney games are a tough way to judge a coach... one right/wrong bounce and you are in/out of the tourney. Obviously the whole point of college basketball is to win it all, but you also have to look at the whole picture when you judge a coach, not just the tourney. I'm not saying Crean isn't free of criticism, but I'm just tempering it given the nature of the tourney format.

Crean has done an excellent job raising MU's profile on the national scene, which shouldn't be underrated because MU is a private school and part of being at a private school is making enough money to run it.

The advertising/marketing angle that Crean has brought has been tremendous. Some people may be a little turned off by it because it seems contrived or slick, but realistically his personality and general demeanor have helped this program greatly. Again, you may not LIKE it, but you have to admit that it has helped.

I agree that sometimes his in game decisions are questionable, but I often give him the benefit of the doubt given the amount of success that MU has had and with the progress MU is still making. If MU was a senior loaded team and making stupid mistakes and such, I'd be more disappointed. But, given the youth of the last few teams, and the talent coming in, I'm still happy with the product and trust the coaching staff.

The loss last year in the tourney was disappointing for sure, but with McNeal injured and with a young team, my expectations weren't too high last year... I was really looking forward to this season.

PRN, your post here is honest and I respect that. You don't have to fall in love with Crean or every decision he makes. I'm just afraid that your dislike of his personality has tainted your ability to objectively look at what he has done professionally.

He's not Al. But, he's done a great job lifting MU back onto the national scene.

You can bitch about:
The nickname
Loss to KU
Recruiting of big men
His long ties
The radio show
Etc
etc

But, he's still the second most successful coach MU has ever had. I love Rick and Hank, but Crean is/has surpassed them.

Oneil was great, but couldn't sustain it and moved on.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2007, 10:40:04 AM by 2002mualum »

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2007, 10:42:07 AM »
I also think much of it has to do with the lack of March success the first round flame outs and the number of times his team's have appeared to have absolutely no idea what was going on ( tournament and regular season) has been questionable at times. The number of times MU has been flat out blown out in Crean's tenure has got to be more than Oneill and Deane combined.  I personally think he over caoches and has very poor basketball intuition.  Exellent preparation but if the script fails watch out.  Of course, I have just touched a few of his weak points, he has a tremendous number of strengths which obviously combined outweigh the weaknesses and as a result have risen the program. 

I agree that sometimes the teams look out of sorts. There is no question about that.

I guess I've always been under the opinion that Crean and his staff will get better with experience as well. Coach K wasn't Coach K his first few year.

Given all of the good that Coach Crean has done, I'm willing to ride with and some of the mistakes.

mu_hilltopper

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2007, 10:46:05 AM »
Gosh, I so enjoy our monthly analyses of Crean.  We should really just put it in the wiki, all the pros and cons, so we don't need to rehash it so often.   :-[

rocky_warrior

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2007, 10:58:40 AM »
Gosh, I so enjoy our monthly analyses of Crean.  We should really just put it in the wiki, all the pros and cons, so we don't need to rehash it so often.   :-[

I think most people that have issues with Crean are willing to just keep it to themselves - unless prompted - except PRN and 4eva. 

Hey guys, why don't you just leave it alone for a month, or a year, or several.  *cough* *cough*  :)

bma725

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2007, 10:59:59 AM »
Just what we need, another thread trashing Crean during the most important recruiting time of the year when we all know recruits read these boards.  That's helpful.

muhoosier260

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2007, 06:48:10 PM »
Well I guess I will take the challenge since I am often labeled a Crean hater.
who's fault is that. i'm so sick of hearing the crean bashing. apparently we have a basketball team? who knew? ya, and i guess we have a highly anticipated season ahead of us.

herboturbo

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2007, 03:40:15 AM »
But let's not forget MU had been to 2 NCAA's in the 4 years previous to Crean we were not in the absolute dump like a So. FLa or something.  A long list of reasons that Mu was attractive to the Big East. I think that is what irks some that Crean is considered by some as bigger than the program, MU was a wonderful program before Crean and will be after, he is a steward. Some people seem to have forgotten that. 


The only one who's forgetting anything seems to be you forgetting the history of this team.  2 NCAA's in 4 years is true, but it was 0 in the 2 years previous to Crean.  This program was in shambles when O'Neil took over and he built them into something, but when he bolted after the sweet 16 because he didn't think he could take MU any further and then Deane came in and said acted, spoke like, and recruited like MU was a midmajor hoping to make a run every once in a while(thus driving MU down to that level) the program was not 'wonderful' if you ask me. A decent 5 year run bookended by a decade of mediocrity or worse and a steep 2 year decline does not make a good program.  Now, granted the University decided to make a major re-commitment to the basketball program when Crean came around, without someone like him in charge believing that MU could attain the heights of the 70's again, we would currently be wallowing around in the middle of the pack of CUSA. 
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Avenue Commons

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2007, 10:02:41 AM »
But let's not forget MU had been to 2 NCAA's in the 4 years previous to Crean we were not in the absolute dump like a So. FLa or something.  A long list of reasons that Mu was attractive to the Big East. I think that is what irks some that Crean is considered by some as bigger than the program, MU was a wonderful program before Crean and will be after, he is a steward. Some people seem to have forgotten that. 


The only one who's forgetting anything seems to be you forgetting the history of this team.  2 NCAA's in 4 years is true, but it was 0 in the 2 years previous to Crean.  This program was in shambles when O'Neil took over and he built them into something, but when he bolted after the sweet 16 because he didn't think he could take MU any further and then Deane came in and said acted, spoke like, and recruited like MU was a midmajor hoping to make a run every once in a while(thus driving MU down to that level) the program was not 'wonderful' if you ask me. A decent 5 year run bookended by a decade of mediocrity or worse and a steep 2 year decline does not make a good program.  Now, granted the University decided to make a major re-commitment to the basketball program when Crean came around, without someone like him in charge believing that MU could attain the heights of the 70's again, we would currently be wallowing around in the middle of the pack of CUSA. 

Amen. The simple fact is Crean took the program from where Deane left it, and brought us to this point. Did he do it all alone? Of course not. The University's commitment to fielding a championship caliber team was a major part of it, but Crean has been the man who brought us back to being a national program. I don't know how anyone can dispute that.
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MUCam

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2007, 10:11:05 AM »
For what it is worth, this post was not supposed drag itself into a pro-Crean/anti-Crean discussion. I was simply noting that eight years ago, we were a team without an identity. Heck, even sixteen years ago we were a team without an identity. We were no longer in the upper echelon of basketball schools.

It is absolutely amazing to me how far we have come. We are not a mid-major team anymore. And before I get blasted, I can assure you that America thought of MU as a mid-major program from around 1985-2000. Now, we are considered a top flight program with the potential to join the truly elite programs (UNC, Duke, Kansas, etc.) Again, anyone who doesn't see how far we have come, is either blind, ignorant, or painfully biased.

As for Crean, I can only urge objectivity. He has done some great things for this program, and he has done some not so good things. But, he is young, and the young and ambitious are prone to mistakes. As long as mistakes are realized and not repeated, then we have a future. Crean has done a good job in this department. He is a marketing man, first and foremost. That rubs some people the wrong way. Well, for those people I say, it is a fact of life and as cheesy as I think the midnight limo visit was, or as cheesy as I think the ATV stunt was, it is part of his marketing ploy and it is hard to argue with the results so far. The man has (singlehandedly, in my opinion) put Marquette Basketball back on the map.

There will be no second coming of Al McGuire. Al was Al and that was what made him great. Any attempt to compare Crean to Al, is doomed for disappointment. Let Crean be Crean, with all his eccentricities and simply acknowledge, for one thread if only, that life as an MU fan has changed in the last eight years, regardless of who you want to congratulate (or blame) for it.

PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2007, 10:34:51 AM »
1. Crean has done some tremendous things for MU. No denying that. 

2. Let's not get carried away calling ourselves a "national program" just yet. People seem to conveniently dismiss the fact that we haven't won anything since Wade left Milwaukee. In fact, we've been humiliated twice in post season (W. Michigan, MSU) and showed up unprepared in a third (Alabama). Who considers us a potential equal to Kansas, NC and Duke? That's ridiculous.

3. It's clear that the "Madness" event did what it was designed to do...it created an excitement level. But is everybody on this board forgetting the rather large flaws this team had a year ago? Do you think they're going to magically disappear? Turnovers, horrid shooting, bad decision making, questionable rebounding? Let's take a chill pill. If anything, the fact that Crean has sold this team as some kind of can't miss group is evidence that he is, indeed, a top-notch salesman.

4. Riding an ATV onto the basketball floor while wearing karate pajamas and an over-sized helmet during a student event is not a "marketing ploy." If you can explain to me how it is I'm all ears.


Marquette84

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2007, 10:43:15 AM »
The number of times MU has been flat out blown out in Crean's tenure has got to be more than Oneill and Deane combined. 

I think you're guilty of a selective memory.  Defining blowouts as final margin of 15 points or more:  

O'Neill:  7
Deane:  13
Total:  20 over 9 combined seasons--average of 2.22 per year

Crean:  17 over 8 seasons--average of 2.13 per year.

And if 15 points is too close, and you'd rather use a final margin of 20 points or more:

O'Neill: 5
Deane: 5
Total: 10 over 9 combined seasons--1.11 per season

Crean: 7 over 8 seasons--0.87 per season.

Bottom line--the claim is false.  Even adjusting for the fact that Crean has one less year than Deane and O'Neill combined, Crean is still offering up fewer blowouts.  

For some reason--perhaps because they're more recent--Crean's losses seem to stand out.  He is being held to a higher standard.  Deane can serve up a stinker in the NCAA against Providence, but it doesn't change the perception that he's "a good bench coach."  Meanwhile, Crean has a bad night against Kansas, and it's held up as evidence that he can't coach.  And please, don't try to split hairs by arguing that a 33 point loss to Kansas is that much worse compared to a 22 point loss to Providence.  Frankly, they were both bad losses.  








PuertoRicanNightmare

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2007, 10:54:15 AM »
And please, don't try to split hairs by arguing that a 33 point loss to Kansas is that much worse compared to a 22 point loss to Providence.  Frankly, they were both bad losses.  

I have never seen two more embarrassing games than the Kansas game and the Louisville (47 points) game. And ten minutes of futility against Michigan State was eerily reminiscent of the Alabama game a year earlier. And the Tulsa game. And the Holy Cross game.

For some reason, Crean's team come out tight. Maybe it's a coincidence.

Canned Goods n Ammo

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2007, 11:02:42 AM »


4. Riding an ATV onto the basketball floor while wearing karate pajamas and an over-sized helmet during a student event is not a "marketing ploy." If you can explain to me how it is I'm all ears.



Oh good god.

Lighten up, Francis. It was cheesy, funny, and different.

As far as marketing goes, well, it just fits with the whole promotion of it being a big, fun event.

Having him come out in a suit and just have the team run (wide) post up drills is BORING.

Having them come out in karate uniforms, having the coach ride an ATV, having a dunk contest, dancers, etc. It's all part of an event. It's just for fun.

Relax dude.


As far as this team being better... well... I think we will see that experience (more upperclassmen) will lead to more consistent play at a high level, so the team will be better. A lot of the mistakes will be reduced because the team is just getting better everyday.

I could be wrong, but that's what I believe.

Marquette84

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Re: Retrospect
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2007, 11:07:44 AM »

3. It's clear that the "Madness" event did what it was designed to do...it created an excitement level. But is everybody on this board forgetting the rather large flaws this team had a year ago? Do you think they're going to magically disappear? Turnovers, horrid shooting, bad decision making, questionable rebounding? Let's take a chill pill. If anything, the fact that Crean has sold this team as some kind of can't miss group is evidence that he is, indeed, a top-notch salesman.

Gee--all those problems on the floor, and yet we still managed to win 10 games in the Big East!  Only 4 teams won more.  Amazing.  You'd think that in a tough league like the Big East, you couldn't win if you shot and rebounded poorly, gave the ball up too much and made bad decisions all the time.  

Must have been Crean's salesmanship.  He's such a good talker and marketer that he simply convinced other teams into letting MU win.

After all, it couldn't be that we protected the ball better, outshot, outrebounded or made better decisions.  Because you already said we don't do any of those things well.  

Or perhaps we had a coach that recognized the team's strenghts and shortcomings, and managed to put together a gameplan that still got us the wins.  Becasue there aren't too many teams that can overcome poor shooting, poor rebounding, problems with turnovers, bad decision making AND bad coaching.  One of those things must be a strenght---i'm going with coaching.


 

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