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Author Topic: Game of Thrones fans here?  (Read 197198 times)

forgetful

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #525 on: August 20, 2017, 09:50:23 PM »
Quite the nutty episode.  Did not expect a dragon to go down and be turned...but really good that they got the dragon/army of the dead interaction in.  Was not expecting that until the very end of the series, and really ups the stakes now.

As far as the accelerated timing, it put Euron's teleportation to shame...apparently "send a Raven" now means a text message and dragons are equipped with hyperdrive.

This was my thought as well.  I had heard rumors awhile back of a dragon dying.  Entering this episode I pretty much had decided it was impossible to happen.  It would take an extreme employment of suspension of disbelief to think that a raven would be able to make it to dragon stone, and then the dragons make it to the battle, before the ice froze on a lake, or the people died of starvation/hypothermia.

Well, apparently they went there and time frame wise this one was a bit too absurd. 

jesmu84

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #526 on: August 20, 2017, 10:26:35 PM »
This was my thought as well.  I had heard rumors awhile back of a dragon dying.  Entering this episode I pretty much had decided it was impossible to happen.  It would take an extreme employment of suspension of disbelief to think that a raven would be able to make it to dragon stone, and then the dragons make it to the battle, before the ice froze on a lake, or the people died of starvation/hypothermia.

Well, apparently they went there and time frame wise this one was a bit too absurd.

Worse than that is the arya/Sansa stuff

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #527 on: August 20, 2017, 10:27:52 PM »
Quite the nutty episode.  Did not expect a dragon to go down and be turned...but really good that they got the dragon/army of the dead interaction in.  Was not expecting that until the very end of the series, and really ups the stakes now.

As far as the accelerated timing, it put Euron's teleportation to shame...apparently "send a Raven" now means a text message and dragons are equipped with hyperdrive.

I mean Thoros had time to freeze to death. I think they meant to give the impression that the standoff was a few days. (Which could explain why the army of the dead hasn't gotten to the wall yet. Everytime they run into a villager they spend days surrounding them and waiting them out). But yeah, that was pretty unbelievable. The more unbelievable bit was Jon not dying of hypothermia. I'm gonna assume he was sustained by the Lord of Light or some nonsense.

Oh, my.  So what will the zombie ice dragon shoot out of its mouth?

My guess is blue flames.
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forgetful

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #528 on: August 20, 2017, 10:29:21 PM »
Worse than that is the arya/Sansa stuff

Yeah, also not a fan of that.

Seems pretty clear at this point that when they are out of GRRM source material and having to go their own way entirely that they struggle a bit with the story telling/realism.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #529 on: August 20, 2017, 10:30:23 PM »
Worse than that is the arya/Sansa stuff

I actually liked that. They didn't like each other before they got separated and with all the both of them have been through they must have PTSD ten times over by now. Its natural that they would be suspicious and paranoid of each other.
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Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #530 on: August 20, 2017, 11:26:13 PM »
Yeah, also not a fan of that.

Seems pretty clear at this point that when they are out of GRRM source material and having to go their own way entirely that they struggle a bit with the story telling/realism.

This is a show about dragons and an army of the dead and people are complaining about realism in terms of travel time.

Has anyone plotted out the distance in miles and how fast ravens and dragons fly? 

FFS, the show is amazing - enjoy it.

Jockey

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #531 on: August 21, 2017, 12:53:57 AM »
I actually liked that. They didn't like each other before they got separated and with all the both of them have been through they must have PTSD ten times over by now. Its natural that they would be suspicious and paranoid of each other.

I agree, TAMU.  I thought their scenes this week were among the best of the year.

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #532 on: August 21, 2017, 08:07:17 AM »
According to the books ice dragons breathe cold enough air to freeze a man in half a heartbeat.

forgetful

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #533 on: August 21, 2017, 08:13:04 AM »
This is a show about dragons and an army of the dead and people are complaining about realism in terms of travel time.

Has anyone plotted out the distance in miles and how fast ravens and dragons fly? 

FFS, the show is amazing - enjoy it.

I see this argument a lot, but it doesn't make sense.  There is a fantasy world that contains dragons and an army of the dead.  The fantasy world includes medieval travel methods and times.  The distance between Dragonstone and North of the wall is roughly the same distance as LA to NYC. 

It would roughly take a week for a raven to fly (non-stop) to deliver the message.

If they had placed teleportation or supersonic dragon flight as part of the fantasy world, it would be fine.  They did not, which makes it poorly constructed from a story standpoint.

I love GOT, but this episode was terribly done from both a technical standpoint and writing standpoint.  The CGI was well done though.

warriorchick

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #534 on: August 21, 2017, 09:13:53 AM »
I liked this episode.



Have some patience, FFS.

JWags85

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #535 on: August 21, 2017, 09:54:34 AM »
While I really appreciated the action, I hated this episode in a lot of ways.  Mostly because I'd come to expect a level of "difference" from GoT as it compares to other fantasy or dramas.

-There was tons of talk of a dragon being killed.  Once the scorpion didn't get the job done, I figured it would be the Walkers.  It seemed simple to predict.

-The sequence of the PERFECTLY timed Deus Ex Machina with the dragons, then the Night King having a spear that naturally he throws in a perfect rocket arc.  The Scorpion hurt Drogon and forced him to land.  Yet this spear hit Viserion like a Sidewinder missile?  Come on.  And then the ending was ATROCIOUS.  They magically have huge thick chains to pull him out of the depths of a lake.  And then from the second you saw the pull crew, I said out loud "the Night King is going to turn Drogon, his eye will open blue, and that will be the end of the episode"...ta da!  It all played out like lazy fan fiction.

Tormund was fantastic this episode at least.  His dialogue continues to be some of the best in the show.  When he nearly was dragged into the water by the Walkers, I was going to be very upset, but at least thats the type of HOLY S*** moment you expect from GoT.  Instead everything was too clean.


jesmu84

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #536 on: August 21, 2017, 10:00:57 AM »
While I really appreciated the action, I hated this episode in a lot of ways.  Mostly because I'd come to expect a level of "difference" from GoT as it compares to other fantasy or dramas.

-There was tons of talk of a dragon being killed.  Once the scorpion didn't get the job done, I figured it would be the Walkers.  It seemed simple to predict.

-The sequence of the PERFECTLY timed Deus Ex Machina with the dragons, then the Night King having a spear that naturally he throws in a perfect rocket arc.  The Scorpion hurt Drogon and forced him to land.  Yet this spear hit Viserion like a Sidewinder missile?  Come on.  And then the ending was ATROCIOUS.  They magically have huge thick chains to pull him out of the depths of a lake.  And then from the second you saw the pull crew, I said out loud "the Night King is going to turn Drogon, his eye will open blue, and that will be the end of the episode"...ta da!  It all played out like lazy fan fiction.

Tormund was fantastic this episode at least.  His dialogue continues to be some of the best in the show.  When he nearly was dragged into the water by the Walkers, I was going to be very upset, but at least thats the type of HOLY S*** moment you expect from GoT.  Instead everything was too clean.

Narrative/exposition of the show seems to be taking a downturn/backseat at this point. Feels like the writers are just wanting to finish everything up in the (relatively) short time they have left.

Pakuni

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #537 on: August 21, 2017, 10:05:53 AM »
I see this argument a lot, but it doesn't make sense.  There is a fantasy world that contains dragons and an army of the dead.  The fantasy world includes medieval travel methods and times.  The distance between Dragonstone and North of the wall is roughly the same distance as LA to NYC. 

It would roughly take a week for a raven to fly (non-stop) to deliver the message.

If they had placed teleportation or supersonic dragon flight as part of the fantasy world, it would be fine.  They did not, which makes it poorly constructed from a story standpoint.

I love GOT, but this episode was terribly done from both a technical standpoint and writing standpoint.  The CGI was well done though.

What's  the airspeed velocity of an unladen raven?

Seriously, though, why are you willing to believe in a fantasy world with dragons and zombies and smoke monsters, etc., but not one in which a raven isn't entirely limited to its physical nature in this (our) world? Maybe Westeros ravens are really, really fast.
This all reeks off as unnecessary nitpicking.

Anyhow ... here's a solid argument for why it's all possible:

When the new episode drops tomorrow, I'm anticipating that there's gonna be a fair bit of bitching and moaning about how quickly Gendry relayed the Just Ice League's message to Dany. Like a lot of people in this sub, I think that too many showwatchers have a pretty fragile ability to suspend disbelief, but I thought I'd offer a semi-plausible rationalization anyway:

    The whole concept of messenger ravens is fantastical. To my knowledge, the only widespread "avian messenger systems" used homing pigeons because of their unique ability to navigate with the Earth's magnetic field. Ravens are smart birds, but they're nonmigratory. The sheer size of the maesters' raven network is also preposterously large and complex for a medieval society. In other words, we're already far beyond the realm of realism before anything involving this specific message.

    On this map it appears that the distance from Eastwatch to Dragonstone is 1800-2000 miles, about the same distance as Seattle to Chicago. From my 5 minutes of internet research, it seems like this scale is based entirely on a single description of the Wall as being 100 leagues long, and one statement from GRRM that 1 league = 3 miles. GRRM has mentioned that he regrets making the Wall so large, so I'm gonna call this an exaggeration and cut all the distances in half (also because my math doesn't work otherwise).

    The Wikipedia article on homing pigeons claims that the top speed of a pigeon over short distances is 90 mph and 50 mph for moderate distances. 900-1000 miles is pushing the limits of how far pigeons can travel (certainly over one day) but idgaf because this world already has dragons and ice zombies, so we're gonna make this hypothetical messenger bird a super raven that can cruise at 90 mph forever.

    I can't find the post, but yesterday someone noted that one of the first landscape shots in the episode is at the same location that Jon & Co. lay the ambush to capture a wight. It's obviously just a filming shortcut because HBO doesn't have infinite money to scout locations in the Icelandic wilderness (but some kneelers are probably calling it a unnatural carnal knowledge-up that breaks their immersion). For our purposes, it's very convenient to presume that they were walking in circles on the zombie hunt, and so we'll say that Gendry only had to run 26.2 miles back to the Wall. The fastest marathon time is about 2 hours, but we'll cut Gendry some slack since he was wearing some pretty bulky clothes and say it took him 3 hours.

What can we conclude from all this ironclad evidence?

Gendry's marathon: 3 hours

Super raven's 900-mile flight to Dragonstone: 10 hours

Dany getting her crap together/arguing with Tyrion: 1 hour

Dragon-flight back to zombie island: 10 hours

Therefore, if you squint your eyes (and remember that we're talking about a sword-and-sorcery TV show and not a Ken Burns documentary), the whole sequence took 24 hours. This comports with the Just Ice League's overnight standoff with the Army of the Dead.


Even if you take away some of this person's favorable assumptions, it can still realistically be accomplished in some 48 hours or so, which fits fine with the narrative (and nothing close to a full week).
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 10:09:16 AM by Pakuni »

MU82

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #538 on: August 21, 2017, 10:21:22 AM »
To me, this episode wasn't as strong as the previous few. Though I'm not all that good at predicting stuff that will happen on GoT, I pretty easily predicted the "dragon's eye will turn blue" scene. And though I am quite good at suspending belief for this series, I said out loud to only my sleeping dog: "Wow. Fast raven."

That being said, I still enjoyed most of the episode. It still was the best thing I saw on TV this week.

And I am looking forward to the eventual clash of the dragons - not to mention the Dany-Cersei and Sansa-Arya clashes. I know we'll probably have to wait until the final season for the bulk of that, unfortunately.
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Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #539 on: August 21, 2017, 10:35:09 AM »
The nitpicking is absurd.

You're really thinking about where they got the chains to pull the dragon from the water? 

Get a grip. 

brewcity77

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #540 on: August 21, 2017, 10:43:59 AM »
For my money, one of the best episodes of the entire series so far. What I really loved about it was that it tied together so many disparate storylines. Suddenly we have Jon Snow talking to Jorah Mormont, the Hound and Tormund Giantsbane firing back and forth, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, and Gendry all back together at the same time. I loved how they finally wove those stories together and brought together these badasses from the furthest reaches of the storyline into the same place at the same time.

I liked the Arya/Sansa stuff as well. I like that Arya seems fully disconnected from the world. This discussion showed just how far removed she is from the little girl that went South in the first season. While Sansa has grown up, Arya has grown apart. Her time with the Faceless has made her something wholly different.

I also loved the battle and the felling of the dragon. I felt like it really made the Night King into a badass. In the past, he's just been this oppressive shadow that had his minions do all his work, now we see that he can fell a dragon with a single blow and now has a zombie dragon to ride himself. It also fixes that pesky Reddit debate of "who will ride the third dragon".

I've complained about the timing before, but watching this, two thoughts. First, Pakuni's timeline seems perfectly plausible. Even if you stretch it out to 48 or 72 hours, that's a perfectly rational timeline. Also, I'm sure that once Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring come out (if they ever do) we'll get even better dialogue and a more fully realized plot mixture as all this comes together. No interpretation is perfect and it's even harder when the source material isn't fully available. But for entertainment value, this was about as good as it gets.
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JWags85

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #541 on: August 21, 2017, 10:54:12 AM »
The nitpicking is absurd.

You're really thinking about where they got the chains to pull the dragon from the water? 

Get a grip.

It's less about the chains and more that some braindead zombie army who only know how to overwhelm and kill while being lead by the Night King, are now executing complex engineering projects. It would be like a hoard of Zombies from the Walking Dead suddenly creating a pulley to lift and ferry large numbers of themselves over an obstruction.

And of all my complaints, that's what you zero'd in on? My whole annoyance was that the storytelling and script got too neat, clean, and cute. That was just another example of it.

Jockey

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #542 on: August 21, 2017, 10:55:42 AM »
For my money, one of the best episodes of the entire series so far. What I really loved about it was that it tied together so many disparate storylines. Suddenly we have Jon Snow talking to Jorah Mormont, the Hound and Tormund Giantsbane firing back and forth, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, and Gendry all back together at the same time. I loved how they finally wove those stories together and brought together these badasses from the furthest reaches of the storyline into the same place at the same time.

I liked the Arya/Sansa stuff as well. I like that Arya seems fully disconnected from the world. This discussion showed just how far removed she is from the little girl that went South in the first season. While Sansa has grown up, Arya has grown apart. Her time with the Faceless has made her something wholly different.

I also loved the battle and the felling of the dragon. I felt like it really made the Night King into a badass. In the past, he's just been this oppressive shadow that had his minions do all his work, now we see that he can fell a dragon with a single blow and now has a zombie dragon to ride himself. It also fixes that pesky Reddit debate of "who will ride the third dragon".


I agree, Brew.

Everyone loves the big scenes and battles, but I prefer the quieter conflicts including the inner battles that Jamie, Tyrion, Arya, the Hound, etc. face. Despite the wide canvas, this is still a story about the struggles of two families - the Starks and the Lannisters.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 10:57:22 AM by Jockey »

Pakuni

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #543 on: August 21, 2017, 10:58:19 AM »
The nitpicking is absurd.

You're really thinking about where they got the chains to pull the dragon from the water? 

Get a grip.

And questioning the spear-throwing capabilities of a 12,000-year-old zombie king with magical powers.
Like, him being created by magical children wielding a magical dagger and then surviving many millennia in the wilderness while turning the dead into a zombie army is totally acceptable, but NO WAY could he be skilled at throwing a magical spear. That's just not credible.

Pakuni

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #544 on: August 21, 2017, 11:08:32 AM »
It's less about the chains and more that some braindead zombie army who only know how to overwhelm and kill while being lead by the Night King, are now executing complex engineering projects. It would be like a hoard of Zombies from the Walking Dead suddenly creating a pulley to lift and ferry large numbers of themselves over an obstruction.

No, it wouldn't be like that at all.
The Walking Dead zombies have no intelligent creator or leader. They're entirely mindless beings who follow no purpose other than a basic desire to feed.
To the contrary, the GoT wights were created to serve the walkers, and have always been shown to follow the commands of the walkers. Think about the attack on Hardhome. The wights clearly attacked on the orders of the Night's King (such as when he ordered them over the cliff, or later when he commanded the newly created wights to rise).
Even last night, the first batch of zombies were clearly marching in sync with the White Walker.

There are some fair criticisms of last night's episode - namely that they writers often are tying things neatly in order to speed things through the final episodes - but some of these gripes are silly (and dareisay simplistic) nitpicking in the place of thoughtful criticism.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 11:10:19 AM by Pakuni »

Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #545 on: August 21, 2017, 11:18:08 AM »
It's less about the chains and more that some braindead zombie army who only know how to overwhelm and kill while being lead by the Night King, are now executing complex engineering projects. It would be like a hoard of Zombies from the Walking Dead suddenly creating a pulley to lift and ferry large numbers of themselves over an obstruction.

And of all my complaints, that's what you zero'd in on? My whole annoyance was that the storytelling and script got too neat, clean, and cute. That was just another example of it.

I mean it was the silliest complaint to me, which is why I mentioned it specifically. 

The Night King throwing a spear and hitting the dragon wasn't too shocking to me.  And perhaps it took the dragon down because of what the spear was made from vs. the Scorpion having to hit a dragon in the perfect spot to kill it.  A dragon is a pretty big target and why wouldn't The Night King have some skills?

The Night King clearly has the ability to think and reason.  Who's to say he can't instruct his army to do exactly what he wants?  Why wouldn't he have some of the dead lose their lives under the water in order to put chains around the dragon?  The payoff is obviously worth it.     

And so what if him turning the dragon (it wasn't drogon) was predictable?  Predictable doesn't have to equate to lazy.  And it was very cool.   

For something that beautiful and exciting to watch, focusing on some of these issues, which could potentially be explained, just seems like a huge waste to me. 

Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #546 on: August 21, 2017, 11:19:58 AM »
For my money, one of the best episodes of the entire series so far. What I really loved about it was that it tied together so many disparate storylines. Suddenly we have Jon Snow talking to Jorah Mormont, the Hound and Tormund Giantsbane firing back and forth, Beric Dondarrion, Thoros of Myr, and Gendry all back together at the same time. I loved how they finally wove those stories together and brought together these badasses from the furthest reaches of the storyline into the same place at the same time.

I liked the Arya/Sansa stuff as well. I like that Arya seems fully disconnected from the world. This discussion showed just how far removed she is from the little girl that went South in the first season. While Sansa has grown up, Arya has grown apart. Her time with the Faceless has made her something wholly different.

I also loved the battle and the felling of the dragon. I felt like it really made the Night King into a badass. In the past, he's just been this oppressive shadow that had his minions do all his work, now we see that he can fell a dragon with a single blow and now has a zombie dragon to ride himself. It also fixes that pesky Reddit debate of "who will ride the third dragon".

I've complained about the timing before, but watching this, two thoughts. First, Pakuni's timeline seems perfectly plausible. Even if you stretch it out to 48 or 72 hours, that's a perfectly rational timeline. Also, I'm sure that once Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring come out (if they ever do) we'll get even better dialogue and a more fully realized plot mixture as all this comes together. No interpretation is perfect and it's even harder when the source material isn't fully available. But for entertainment value, this was about as good as it gets.

Nicely stated. 

Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #547 on: August 21, 2017, 11:21:03 AM »
No, it wouldn't be like that at all.
The Walking Dead zombies have no intelligent creator or leader. They're entirely mindless beings who follow no purpose other than a basic desire to feed.
To the contrary, the GoT wights were created to serve the walkers, and have always been shown to follow the commands of the walkers. Think about the attack on Hardhome. The wights clearly attacked on the orders of the Night's King (such as when he ordered them over the cliff, or later when he commanded the newly created wights to rise).
Even last night, the first batch of zombies were clearly marching in sync with the White Walker.

There are some fair criticisms of last night's episode - namely that they writers often are tying things neatly in order to speed things through the final episodes - but some of these gripes are silly (and dareisay simplistic) nitpicking in the place of thoughtful criticism.

Also nicely stated. 

MUBurrow

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #548 on: August 21, 2017, 11:25:49 AM »
Seriously, though, why are you willing to believe in a fantasy world with dragons and zombies and smoke monsters, etc., but not one in which a raven isn't entirely limited to its physical nature in this (our) world? Maybe Westeros ravens are really, really fast.
This all reeks off as unnecessary nitpicking.

The nitpicking is absurd.
You're really thinking about where they got the chains to pull the dragon from the water? 
Get a grip. 

Nah, this just isn't a valid counterpoint. I get that there's a lot of GoT fans that don't consume a lot of sci-fi or fantasy. But internal consistency about where to suspend reality one hand, and where art is imitating life one the other, is the central tenet of the genre.  Its not fair to say "Hey! This isn't a documentary, so you have no right to criticize the internal inconsistencies of the storytelling." I get that if you're deciding whether to watch GoT or Oz, the timelines, etc. may not be that important to you. But GoT is at its core, a tv adaptation of what is a pretty tightly woven anthology narrative. Its a perfectly fair criticism of the adaptation for not holding itself to the same standards of internal consistency of the source material. Given that consumers of all things GoT have spent 5 books and 7 seasons invested in this, and that this has just recently started to become a major problem as the series is hurriedly rushing to its conclusion, its perfectly understandable to feel let down.

Edit - sorry, I'm seeing that this is all getting distilled down now before i posted. I'm a dumb.

Pakuni

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Re: Game of Thrones fans here?
« Reply #549 on: August 21, 2017, 11:51:04 AM »
Nah, this just isn't a valid counterpoint. I get that there's a lot of GoT fans that don't consume a lot of sci-fi or fantasy. But internal consistency about where to suspend reality one hand, and where art is imitating life one the other, is the central tenet of the genre.  Its not fair to say "Hey! This isn't a documentary, so you have no right to criticize the internal inconsistencies of the storytelling." I get that if you're deciding whether to watch GoT or Oz, the timelines, etc. may not be that important to you. But GoT is at its core, a tv adaptation of what is a pretty tightly woven anthology narrative. Its a perfectly fair criticism of the adaptation for not holding itself to the same standards of internal consistency of the source material. Given that consumers of all things GoT have spent 5 books and 7 seasons invested in this, and that this has just recently started to become a major problem as the series is hurriedly rushing to its conclusion, its perfectly understandable to feel let down.

Edit - sorry, I'm seeing that this is all getting distilled down now before i posted. I'm a dumb.

I don't think anyone has said 'you have no right to criticize the internal inconsistencies of the storytelling.' Rather, I'm saying it's nitpicking and inconsistent to eagerly accept some fantastical elements of a story while railing other minor details over their supposed lack of realism.

But setting aside the argument over what is and isn't acceptable suspension of disbelief in a fantasy story, some of the plot elements being called unrealistic/incredible simply are not.
As pointed out above, it's not unrealistic in the GoT universe to deploy ravens to get a message to Daenerys from beyond the wall within an acceptable 48-hour (roughly) time frame.
It's not unrealistic that the White Walkers would possess and be capable of using a magical spear that could take down a dragon. They're magical beings that have been around for 12,000 years and been plotting an attack for millennia. Certainly they're aware of dragons' place in the world and would have prepared for them.
It's entirely within the narrative that the wights follow the commands of the White Walkers, and that would include commands to drag a dragon out of a frozen lake with chains (though it is fair to question where the chains came from ... Hardhome, perhaps?). It's even credible to believe the Night's King set up the situation as a means of capturing a dragon of his own.

So, even setting aside a debate over suspension of disbelief, some of the complaints when scrutinized just don't hold up.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 11:58:38 AM by Pakuni »

 

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