Molestation Allegations at Syracuse

[MUBurrow]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7248184/syracuse-police-investigating-bernie-fine-molesting-boy-1980s

Makes you wonder how many more of these types of stories will come out in the coming weeks/months.  

edit: mods feel free to move this to the superbar if its not an appropriate topic for the al.

[JD]

Serious question, how do boys get raped?  I just don't get how when your 15 or older you can get raped?  Especially in this article the victim states this happened until he was 27. WTF?

[avid1010]

Serious question, how do boys get raped?  I just don't get how when your 15 or older you can get raped?  Especially in this article the victim states this happened until he was 27. WTF?

My thought would be someone who was repeatedly raped prior to being 15 might not have the mental health needed to physically resist.  I can't begin to imagine what that must do to kids. 

As far as 15+, it really doesn't matter the circumstances if the person is under 18 does it?

[JD]

As far as 15+, it really doesn't matter the circumstances if the person is under 18 does it?


I think you misunderstood, I'm talking about a physical stand point.  I just don't understand somebody at age 15 or older who can't fight back.. hell even 12.  I just have a hard time comprehending.

[RubyWiscy]

It doesn't happen out of the blue, like an attack on a dark corner.  Listen to the audio.  It is a systematic process of gaining trust, gradually breaking down barriers, creating feelings of attachment, gratitude, indebtedness.  It is a slow, seductive process. The victim often doesn't realize what is going on until it is too late. Then comes the shame which perpetuates the cycle. No one to turn to. No one steps up to question the relationship.  These guys are masters at manipulation and are often seen as "role models" of caring about kids.

[JD]

Thank you for the explanation.  I wish i could say i understand but i don't which is probably a good thing.

[MountainCreekHouse]

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7248184/syracuse-police-investigating-bernie-fine-molesting-boy-1980s

"Bernie Fine got the boy ejaculate on many occasions... hundreds if not thousands of times"

Made the boy ejaculate?... on behalf of all men, I struggle to find forcing someone to ejaculation completely one-sided...

Regardless, the allegations, if true, are still terrible.

[Blackhat]

Must've liked it if he stuck around till 27.    That or Fine puts spells on people.

[RubyWiscy]

Wow! Okay, listen.  Part of the "seductions" and the building of shame is that there is some pleasure for the victim.  He doesn't want it. He didn't ask for or even consider the relationship sexual.  But suddenly it is.  And there was physical pleasure.  So now he thinks or is intimidated into thinking maybe he did want it.  Everything is turned upside down.  His is scared, ashamed, alone, trapped.  Don't blame the victim.  He did not ask for or go looking for a guy he idolized to molest him.  

[MUMac]

Wow! Okay, listen.  Part of the "seductions" and the building of shame is that there is some pleasure for the victim.  He doesn't want it. He didn't ask for or even consider the relationship sexual.  But suddenly it is.  And there was physical pleasure.  So now he thinks or is intimidated into thinking maybe he did want it.  Everything is turned upside down.  His is scared, ashamed, alone, trapped.  Don't blame the victim.  He did not ask for or go looking for a guy he idolized to molest him.  

Over the past few weeks, I have learned more about this subject than I ever wanted to learn.  How rampant is this in sports?  Very disturbing. 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Up until 1983, Syracuse called these people "team managers." I understand Fine insisted they be called "ball boys," even into their mid-20s.

[Tugg Speedman]

Boeheim is not going to survive this.  Soon someone will piece together something to suggest Boeheim knew and did not do enough.  At that point the "Paterno standard" will kick in and he'll be gone.

Boeheim will be gone by Christmas.

[avid1010]

Must've liked it if he stuck around till 27.    That or Fine puts spells on people.

Possibly the worst thing I've seen posted on this board.  Class act.  If you listen to the video the victim refers to it as a spell.  Not saying that the guy isn't making it all up, but to suggest it's as simple as liking it or walking away is ridiculous.

[Dawson Rental]

Boeheim is not going to survive this.  Soon someone will piece together something to suggest Boeheim knew and did not do enough.  At that point the "Paterno standard" will kick in and he'll be gone.

Boeheim will be gone by Christmas.

The victim states that Boeheim knew that he was staying in fine's room on road trips, and just "scowled" when he would be confronted with it, as when he would go to Fine's room and see Davis sitting on the bed there in his shorts.

[Tugg Speedman]

The victim states that Boeheim knew that he was staying in fine's room on road trips, and just "scowled" when he would be confronted with it, as when he would go to Fine's room and see Davis sitting on the bed there in his shorts.

Boeheim might night make Thanksgiving!

[Dawson Rental]

Wow! Okay, listen.  Part of the "seductions" and the building of shame is that there is some pleasure for the victim.  He doesn't want it. He didn't ask for or even consider the relationship sexual.  But suddenly it is.  And there was physical pleasure.  So now he thinks or is intimidated into thinking maybe he did want it.  Everything is turned upside down.  His is scared, ashamed, alone, trapped.  Don't blame the victim.  He did not ask for or go looking for a guy he idolized to molest him.  

The attitudes that the victim could have stopped this physically or that he shouldn't have let it continue as long as he did are reasons why abuse like this goes unpunished so often.  It's just a lack of awareness by people who haven't been exposed to this extreme kind of abuse of trust.

The real kicker is often abusers like this were oftentimes themselves abused and as a consequence of that abuse perpetrate the same abuse, keeping a sad sick cycle reoccurring.  That's why not sweeping these kinds of allegations (which at this point is all that they are) under the rug is so important.  

[tower912]

(A) Horrible, if true.   (B)  The new 11th commandment should be, "Thou shalt not jump to conclusions based on what reads on the internet."    (C)  Still uncomfortable after the allegations lobbed at MU to cast stones.   

[Skatastrophy]

The attitudes that the victim could have stopped this physically or that he shouldn't have let it continue as long as he did are reasons why abuse like this goes unpunished so often.  It's just a lack of awareness by people who haven't been exposed to this extreme kind of abuse of trust.

Exactly.

I'm glad that some of you guys are asking honest questions about "how" and "why" because they're important questions, but when it comes down to it a 15 year old boy (or any minor) being assaulted by any adult is absolutely *not* okay.

I'm not saying that the accused is guilty, especially because this particular case was investigated a while ago and not prosecuted because of inconsistencies... but if a 15 year old kid had a sexual relationship with an adult it's against the laws of the land.  Unless you're an ancient Greek or Roman, it's illegal. 

[Dawson Rental]

Unfortunately it was only investigated by ESPN, the Syracuse City Police refused to look into it in 2003.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

There seems to be a lot of former altar boys on the board tonight!

[Dawson Rental]

(A) Horrible, if true.   (B)  The new 11th commandment should be, "Thou shalt not jump to conclusions based on what reads on the internet."    (C)  Still uncomfortable after the allegations lobbed at MU to cast stones.   

Not to mention our unique potential exposure.  I know of a past president of a Jesuit University and a Jesuit prep school who have been defrocked in the last few years over accusations like these.  I'm not really worried because as the two incidents I have knowledge about indicate, in the last eight years or so the Jesuits have adopted a new attitude on this subject, gone through old complaints and done some serious investigating.

[avid1010]

There seems to be a lot of former altar boys on the board tonight!

Hopefully not, but if there was one, I can only imagine how much he'd appreciate the comments. 

[GGGG]

I think Boeheim is going to be OK.

First, the alleged vicitim contacted the police, was informed the statute of limitations expired.

Second, Syracuse was informed of the police investigation and launched there own investigation anyway.

Unless some solid evidence comes out that he knew about this and covered it up...or he knew of multiple allegations, I don't think Boeheim is touched by this.

[Skatastrophy]

Hopefully not, but if there was one, I can only imagine how much he'd appreciate the comments. 

I was one, but my grandpa was the minister and I now know that I was a particularly sexy kid.

[Jay Bee]

I don't think Boeheim is touched by this.

Uhhh.

Why did Syracuse already suspend the perv?  If they knew of the allegations, investigated it and did nothing... why do something now?  Did they receive new information, or is it simply because now it's in the media? 

"he pulled on him hundreds or a thousand times and made him ejaculate".. what?!  Some of the details of allegations the news talks about is sick...

[avid1010]

I was a particularly sexy kid.

What happened?

[GGGG]

Uhhh.

Why did Syracuse already suspend the perv?  If they knew of the allegations, investigated it and did nothing... why do something now?  Did they receive new information, or is it simply because now it's in the media? 

I think it's simply because it is in the media.  I doubt they found out something substantively new during one day yesterday.

[Skatastrophy]

What happened?

He was an upstanding gentleman and a caring husband, father and grandfather until he passed away in the 90s?

I was a good looking kid, though.  You can ask my mom if you don't believe me.

[Benny B]

I was a good looking kid, though.  You can ask my mom if you don't believe me.

Skats gets the award for "hanging curve ball" post of the day.

[leever]

Boeheim might night make Thanksgiving!

Assuming that anything actually happened, right?  The 'victim' does not always tell the truth, right?  Innocent until proven guilty?  Seems like we were recently all up in arms that no one should jump to conclusions, wait for the evidence, etc.  Now we need to hang Boeheim?  Why the haste?

[bilsu]

I think Boeheim is going to be OK.

First, the alleged vicitim contacted the police, was informed the statute of limitations expired.

Second, Syracuse was informed of the police investigation and launched there own investigation anyway.

Unless some solid evidence comes out that he knew about this and covered it up...or he knew of multiple allegations, I don't think Boeheim is touched by this.

Public perception in these cases is what matters. In hind site, when allegations were made in 2003, Boeheim would have been smart to replace him even though apparently nothing was found.

[RawdogDX]

(A) Horrible, if true.   (B)  The new 11th commandment should be, "Thou shalt not jump to conclusions based on what reads on the internet."    (C)  Still uncomfortable after the allegations lobbed at MU to cast stones.   

I think "Don't rape kids" should be in there also.  Rather than bumping it up to 12 we could just replace two of the egomaniacal ones:
1: Worship only me
2: Don't worship things that aren't me
3: Don't be talking smack about me
4: Take a day off... spend it worshiping me.

[GGGG]

I think "Don't rape kids" should be in there also.  Rather than bumping it up to 12 we could just replace two of the egomaniacal ones:
1: Worship only me
2: Don't worship things that aren't me
3: Don't be talking smack about me
4: Take a day off... spend it worshiping me.

OK...this made me laugh...

[Blue Horseshoe]

Serious question, how do boys get raped?  I just don't get how when your 15 or older you can get raped?  Especially in this article the victim states this happened until he was 27. WTF?

How do women get raped? I mean seriously, if you are 15 or older rape is impossible and doesn't exist.

[Dawson Rental]

He was an upstanding gentleman and a caring husband, father and grandfather until he passed away in the 90s?

I was a good looking kid, though.  You can ask my mom if you don't believe me.

I believe that Avid's point was: Given that you were such a good looking kid, how did it come to be that you look as you do now?

[Dawson Rental]

Boeheim is on the record now, saying the following about the alleged victim: "...there is only one side to this story,  He is lying."

If the charges are substantiated, I don't see how Boeheim can stay on after making that strong of a statement.  He also attacked the victim's credibility, by stating that it wasn't surprising that the only collaborating witness was a relative.  (The other witness who also claims to have been abused is the victim's older step-brother.)

Come to think of it, he's also attacking the credibility of the second victim, as well.  In both cases, this is a real no no, unless you are certain of your facts, so he had better be.

[Dawson Rental]

His post was in teal mocking somebody else who stated the same thing about the male gender.

copious,

You may have missed that the "somebody else" who was being mocked was JDuquaine.  Also, JDuq started out his post by stating it was hard for him to understand how such abuse could continue until the victim was 27, and he backed off his comments after some other posters explained the nature of such abuse without feeling the need to attack or belittle JDuq.  Also, it should have been clear to anyone reading his post that JDuq was talking specifically about male on male rape.

[Skatastrophy]

I believe that Avid's point was: Given that you were such a good looking kid, how did it come to be that you look as you do now?

McDonald's.  Plus I fought a lawnmower with my face a couple of years ago.

[copious1218]

copious,

You may have missed that the "somebody else" who was being mocked was JDuquaine.  Also, JDuq started out his post by stating it was hard for him to understand how such abuse could continue until the victim was 27, and he backed off his comments after some other posters explained the nature of such abuse without feeling the need to attack or belittle JDuq.  Also, it should have been clear to anyone reading his post that JDuq was talking specifically about male on male rape.

Thanks for the clarification.  As you can see, I posted a response before I recognized you had posted this.  That being said, I did miss the fact that is was JDuq being mocked.

I thought maybe he was posting from a cell phone and couldn't tell the response was in teal.  That is all. 

Having said that, in a manipulative rape scenario (vs. an attack scenario) - I see no distinction in gender of the victim.

[JD]

Thank you Murs.  I'm just going to leave it as it is what it is, and i hope that these allegations aren't true.

[Blue Horseshoe]

I'm just going to leave it as it is what it is, and i hope that these allegations aren't true.

Agreed. However, if they are indeed true there should be justice for the victims. For the time being the investigation needs to run its course.

[Dawson Rental]

Agreed. However, if they are indeed true there should be justice for the victims. For the time being the investigation needs to run its course.

Absolutely!

[MattyWarrior]

Boeheim comes acrosss like a total ahole,why say anything at all? Was he with his assistant day and night for forty years?

[avid1010]

He seems to be going in different directions at different times.  I think he just needed to say that the coach is his friend, and until there is proof that he did anything wrong, he will surely support him and continue to be his friend.  If he's absolutely sure the allegations are a play for cash, then I have no problem with what he's doing because it's a horrible thing for the assistant coach to have to go through.  I didn't like when he came out and said he wasn't Joe Pa...if you're going to call the allegations lies, but then say you shouldn't be fired if they are true, it doesn't really work for me.

[Tugg Speedman]

Boeheim comes acrosss like a total ahole,why say anything at all? Was he with his assistant day and night for forty years?

He's toast.  If the allegations are true, Boeheim gone in 24 hours.  Colgate might have been his last game.

[burger]

First......there is a big difference between a finding of facts in a grand jury investigation and an interview by "two cousins" on a local TV affiliate....

Second.....The police could not find any evidence when they took the case in 2003.....

Unless there is some kind of substantiated evidence like the "Monica" evidence.....This ain't going no where......

and lastly.....

For the scumbags from the "gerble board" to our west where their conference brethern has committed the greatest institutional cover-up in NCAA history....

Do not try and "associate" .....First Syracuse....and Second....Marquette with the "Scum" that is the "Big Ten"

The NCAA has sent a letter of institutional control  to Penn St.....I can not believe the Big 10 has not suspended them immediately.....

For them to be playing football yesterday just shows how big of a scumbag league the Big 10 is from top to bottom.....(Paterno to Crean)

CHILD RAPE and a 10 YEAR COVER-UP is bigger than any collegiate football program!

Never fear ....the FBI will be arriving shortly.....This reaches all the way to the governor.....He is next.....

Put that in your Badger pipe and smoke it!

[Tugg Speedman]

First......there is a big difference between a finding of facts in a grand jury investigation and an interview by "two cousins" on a local TV affiliate....

Second.....The police could not find any evidence when they took the case in 2003.....

Unless there is some kind of substantiated evidence like the "Monica" evidence.....This ain't going no where......

I agree with you.  But Boeheim has left himself no wiggle room if their is any substance to the allegation.  My bet is their is and he will be toast.

Also, the 2003 police investigation was by the Syracuse police.  The police chief was Duvall, a former player.  Because of this conflict, the investigation may not be credible.  Also, it will be argued that the investigation was influenced by the 2003 Carmelo led national championship run.  So, I put little stock in this investigation.  They had the sympathetic police chief and the championship team so nothing was going to give them a black eye so they concluded with a finding of no evidence.

[Dawson Rental]

I agree with you.  But Boeheim has left himself no wiggle room if their is any substance to the allegation.  My bet is their is and he will be toast.

Also, the 2003 police investigation was by the Syracuse police.  The police chief was Duvall, a former player.  Because of this conflict, the investigation may not be credible.  Also, it will be argued that the investigation was influenced by the 2003 Carmelo led national championship run.  So, I put little stock in this investigation.  They had the sympathetic police chief and the championship team so nothing was going to give them a black eye so they concluded with a finding of no evidence.

But the finding was not that there was no evidence, the victim was told that the statute of limitations had run and there would be no investigation unless he knew of some kid that was presently being abused.

It seems that there was a Syracuse University investigation in 2005 where the University (whoever they had investigating) was not able to get anyone mentioned by the victim to collaborate his story.

[MUBurrow]

game over.

http://deadspin.com/5862800/he-thinks-hes-above-the-law-bernie-fines-wife-secretly-taped-on-phone-admits-bernie-has-issues

[cheebs09]

At first I thought this was just someone trying to capitalize on the Penn State allegations and try to mold what happened in his past to look like a sexual assault. This is such a sad story and I'm hoping this is the last one, but I'm sure there aren't only two instances of this in college sports. Hopefully this can help others come out to get some justice and hopefully end this in college sports.

I wonder if Boeheim will get fired over this. It didn't happen on campus like PSU and they ran an investigation that seems like it didn't find anything, so I could see him not knowing or taking the word of the investigation.

[chren21]

The sportscenter bit on this that I saw this morning played a bunch of the phone tapes.  It's ugly.

[Litehouse]

Boeheim's actions in the past probably won't get him fired, but his recent comments might.

[Tugg Speedman]

Boeheim defended Fine and called Fine's accuser a liar.  Boeheim "did not do enough" is the new "Paterno standard."  Now we may have a third accuser (link below).  Fine looks more and more like Sandusky every day.

If all of this is true and as it is portrayed in these stories, Boeheim is gone in a matter of days.  Fine is going to jail.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7286347/otl-audio-tape-syracuse-orange-assistant-bernie-fine-wife-admits-worries-abuse

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/7286342/bernie-fine-syracuse-orange-third-sexual-abuse-accuser-report-says

[Tugg Speedman]

First, the alleged vicitim contacted the police, was informed the statute of limitations expired.
Second, Syracuse was informed of the police investigation and launched there own investigation anyway.

The police investigation was bogus.  The Syracuse police chief was Dennis Duvall, a hall of fame Syracuse Basketball player.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/7248184/syracuse-police-investigating-bernie-fine-molesting-boy-1980s

At the time, the Syracuse police chief was Dennis Duval, a former Syracuse basketball player. Duval, who retired in 2004, could not be reached for comment. He played at Syracuse from 1971 to 1974 and started with the Syracuse Police Department in 1978. Boeheim became the head coach at Syracuse in 1976, but began as a graduate assistant in 1969.

[MUBurrow]

I think he's gone. Not necessarily because of what he did or didn't do (except if some of the things about the boys being in Fine's hotel rooms are true - that would likely be a fireable offense).  The main reason I think he's gone is from a PR standpoint. You can't call molestation victims moneygrubbing liars and remain the most public figure in a major university. He had a chance to say "no comment," didn't do it, and for that you pay.

[Tugg Speedman]

I think he's gone. Not necessarily because of what he did or didn't do (except if some of the things about the boys being in Fine's hotel rooms are true - that would likely be a fireable offense).  The main reason I think he's gone is from a PR standpoint. You can't call molestation victims moneygrubbing liars and remain the most public figure in a major university. He had a chance to say "no comment," didn't do it, and for that you pay.

+1  

Boeheim's comment suggest he doesn't care about molestation so he'll be gone soon.

[cheebs09]

Forgot about some of his comments and that the boys were in hotel rooms. Then yes, I think he will probably be gone before the season is done due to the speed at which some of this stuff is coming out.

[Tugg Speedman]

Darren Rovell, CNBC's Sports reporter has been tweeting about Boeheim this morning ...

https://twitter.com/#!/darrenrovell

2 Hours Ago
As I said before, Jim Boeheim's bold reaction will get him fired if Bernie Fine allegations are true. Cuse has no choice.

2 Hours Ago
Even if he didn't know about Fine, Boeheim dug himself deep by calling the alleged victims extortion artists.

13 minutes ago
Cuse fans don't understand that Boeheim didn't have to know anything in order to fire him. His response alone could be grounds.