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Author Topic: 29 years ago today...  (Read 204315 times)

Richie

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #175 on: October 13, 2015, 10:54:49 AM »
And mine too, 1985 to 89.

But I'd have it no other way, our basketball wasn't the best but we had the NC heartbreak weekend and many other bball memories that still bring lots of laughs even today. As I'm sure is the case with all of us who were at MU in the late 80's, those years have made me appreciate what we have now, and Cords hiring of KO.

We might not have won, but it was fun to go to the games and we had many great places to drink before and after the game; and of course, the Green Tree.


TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #176 on: October 13, 2015, 12:04:15 PM »

One thing I think some people don't understand.  It really wasn't just about the name.

It really was about a University administration that let not just the basketball program wither on the vine due to neglect, but also the University itself.  And then when Kevin O'Neill came in to resurrect the program, the past was almost white-washed away.  As if they were apologizing for something that didn't need to be apologized for.

It is not an understatement that the late 80s and early 90s were the darkest days in the University's history - the basketball was bad, enrollment was struggling, the neighborhood was closing in.  Raynor was a great man who stuck around too long.  DiUlio was a complete disaster.  The Golden Eagles debacle was the capstone on that putrid era. 

Due to Father Wild and his team, the University has grown from that time.  The basketball is good.  The academics are much better.  Student demand is great.  The Warrior name is the one mistake that hasn't been corrected.

There is a lot of truth to your post. Well said. But I do not agree with the bolded statement. We did need to apologize. Our choice of mascot was racist, demeaning, and a flat out embarrassment to our university. By mascot, I don't mean the choice of Warriors, I mean the choice to depict the warrior as a Native American. Having white kids dress up as the First Warrior was bad enough but we so far as to have caricatures like Willie Wampum. That is a shameful part of our history, one that the administration should have apologized for.

But they never did. You were right the university tried to white wash the past. It wasn't an apology, it was to hide the embarrassment. We were already ahead of the times by changing a Native American themed mascot. We could have been true leaders for change if we had manned up, admitted we made a mistake in the past, and then switched to a Greco-Roman type warrior (love the Joan of Arc suggestions some have made in the past). We could have created a dialogue on the subject and encouraged the schools with more blatantly offensive mascots to change. Instead, we tried to sweep it all under the rug and pray that people would forget about what had happened in the past. It was childish. We should have kept the Warrior name, just changed the imagery. Sure there would have been some backlash from alumni, but it couldn't have been worse than the backlash that still exists.

All that being said, its been what? 23 years at this point? Warriors is never coming back. If they survived all the withheld donations and angry letters this long, what's going to change in the future? What does b*tching and moaning about it get us? What does tearing down our current mascot get us? Nothing. It just makes us look petty and sad. Why trash your alma mater if the decision your upset about is never going to be reversed? None of the people who made the decision to switch are still in power. It's a completely new administration. Why are we still mad?

I am a Golden Eagle. I wish I could have been a Warrior. I should have been a Warrior. That doesn't mean I'm not proud to be a Golden Eagle.
TAMU

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dgies9156

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #177 on: October 13, 2015, 12:06:38 PM »
Probably your best post.

Bring back the Warriors.

For what it is worth, there were problems going back to the 1970s. There were rumors about cheapness even then. At one point, it was suggested that the Administration's nickeling and diming Al to death was a reason he elected to leave.

Those of us who lived through the 1970s saw it coming. The Miami of Ohio debacle was one problem. The lack of recruiting Top 5 and Top 10 talent to Marquette was another. The emergence of the original Big East was still another event that eroded our franchise as perennial also-rans like Georgetown, Boston College, Providence et al suddenly were energized. Hank, God love him, didn't have the impact of Al. It was like sending your Grandfather to the rough neighborhoods after sending a street thug in!

Marquette also had numerous questions, as I recall, about why we were a basketball institution. The fact was that basketball in the 1970s got people to look at Marquette that otherwise might not known it was there. When the basketball program faded, so did Marquette's visibility outside Wisconsin and its surrounding states.

The Golden Eagles thing had to happen. Much as I love the Warriors and will ALWAYS BE A WARRIOR, the PC Police at the NCAA won't let us be Warriors. Without Father Marquette and the Native American, the Warrior name is as worthless as a Golden Eagle name. The Native American and Father Marquette represent what Marquette is and our regional heritage.

wadesworld

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #178 on: October 13, 2015, 12:16:21 PM »
When is the word/term "warriors" ever used in a negative way?
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tower912

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #179 on: October 13, 2015, 12:24:10 PM »
There is a lot of truth to your post. Well said. But I do not agree with the bolded statement. We did need to apologize. Our choice of mascot was racist, demeaning, and a flat out embarrassment to our university. By mascot, I don't mean the choice of Warriors, I mean the choice to depict the warrior as a Native American. Having white kids dress up as the First Warrior was bad enough but we so far as to have caricatures like Willie Wampum. That is a shameful part of our history, one that the administration should have apologized for.

But they never did. You were right the university tried to white wash the past. It wasn't an apology, it was to hide the embarrassment. We were already ahead of the times by changing a Native American themed mascot. We could have been true leaders for change if we had manned up, admitted we made a mistake in the past, and then switched to a Greco-Roman type warrior (love the Joan of Arc suggestions some have made in the past). We could have created a dialogue on the subject and encouraged the schools with more blatantly offensive mascots to change. Instead, we tried to sweep it all under the rug and pray that people would forget about what had happened in the past. It was childish. We should have kept the Warrior name, just changed the imagery. Sure there would have been some backlash from alumni, but it couldn't have been worse than the backlash that still exists.

All that being said, its been what? 23 years at this point? Warriors is never coming back. If they survived all the withheld donations and angry letters this long, what's going to change in the future? What does b*tching and moaning about it get us? What does tearing down our current mascot get us? Nothing. It just makes us look petty and sad. Why trash your alma mater if the decision your upset about is never going to be reversed? None of the people who made the decision to switch are still in power. It's a completely new administration. Why are we still mad?

I am a Golden Eagle. I wish I could have been a Warrior. I should have been a Warrior. That doesn't mean I'm not proud to be a Golden Eagle.

Some really good stuff here.    Class of '88.   I remember the first Warrior.   I wasn't particularly political or socially aware back then, but I always felt that was degrading.   Willie Wampum is just a sad embarrassment.   Yes, if MU had acknowledged mistakes and embraced a new image of Warrior, that would have been best.    But institutions, schools, bureaucracies, the Catholic church struggle with that.    But this argument has been settled and my opinion lost.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

GGGG

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #180 on: October 13, 2015, 12:31:27 PM »
The University did a lot to "man-up" TAMU.  For about 20 years the University tried to be respectable.  Willie Wampum was clearly an offensive mascot, and it died its death in 1971 after student protest.  During the 1980s, the University intentionally worked with Native groups to design a mascot that would be considered appropriate.  In retrospect, the Last Warrior was an idea with noble intentions but still clung to the idea that the Warrior had to represent something Native American.

After 1987, the University eliminated the Native mascot entirely, but unfortunately not the logo.  Had they done something like the Valpo Crusader at that point, the Warrior name probably would have survived.  And it still could have - even in 1993.  But instead the administration took the nuclear option of completely changing a name that in-and-of-itself was not offensive. 

And I really am not mad about it.  It has never caused me to withhold a donation.  I just want the name back.

GooooMarquette

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #181 on: October 13, 2015, 12:50:31 PM »
I am a Golden Eagle. I wish I could have been a Warrior. I should have been a Warrior. That doesn't mean I'm not proud to be a Golden Eagle.

Given that you wish you could have been a Warrior and acknowledge that you should have been a Warrior, I would think you'd better understand why those of us who actually were there when the teams were called Warriors are so pissed off about the university's cavalier disposal of the nickname.


TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #182 on: October 13, 2015, 01:00:12 PM »
Given that you wish you could have been a Warrior and acknowledge that you should have been a Warrior, I would think you'd better understand why those of us who actually were there when the teams were called Warriors are so pissed off about the university's cavalier disposal of the nickname.

I understand but not after 21 years. I also don't understand the need to tear down the Golden Eagle mascot.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2015, 01:04:23 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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real chili 83

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #183 on: October 13, 2015, 01:06:28 PM »
The Mascot was not well done....looks like a big chicken.

This could have been done much better by the University....both times.  The name could have been kept.  Get rid of the imagery.  It's not that hard.

Also, many suspect that the abolition of the word Warrior was also in part, due to a financial transaction.  DiUlio selling out to the Pottawatomi.  Selling out might be a little harsh sounding, but it gets at the essence of how that alleged transaction appears.

dgies9156

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #184 on: October 13, 2015, 01:46:54 PM »
The Mascot was not well done....looks like a big chicken.

Looks like a damn furry bird to me! Go Furry Birds!

Galway Eagle

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #185 on: October 13, 2015, 01:50:00 PM »
The Mascot was not well done....looks like a big chicken.

This could have been done much better by the University....both times.  The name could have been kept.  Get rid of the imagery.  It's not that hard.

Also, many suspect that the abolition of the word Warrior was also in part, due to a financial transaction.  DiUlio selling out to the Pottawatomi.  Selling out might be a little harsh sounding, but it gets at the essence of how that alleged transaction appears.

The first one looked alright I think. The modern one is a joke. 

I hate that it's unoriginal but 22 years have gone by I think it's weird still being upset at this point. 
Maigh Eo for Sam

Eldon

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #186 on: October 13, 2015, 01:51:47 PM »
The golden eagles have never won a national championship.

-Badger fan

GooooMarquette

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #187 on: October 13, 2015, 02:07:41 PM »
I hate that it's unoriginal but 22 years have gone by I think it's weird still being upset at this point.

I agree it would be weird if a Warrior fan made their outrage about the nickname change a central part of their everyday existence, where they constantly protested, screamed about it, wrote letters about it...and basically acted like it was a current issue as important as a strong economy and good healthcare.

For me, it's something that I discuss when the subject is raised here, or occasionally at a game.  My opinion is very strong during those conversations...but when I leave here, the rest of my takes over again.

Lennys Tap

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #188 on: October 13, 2015, 02:49:13 PM »
 

I hate that it's unoriginal but 22 years have gone by I think it's weird still being upset at this point.

We had the coolest nickname in college sports. AND it was unique to Marquette. Now we're a johnny come lately to the most common and boring one out there. 22 days or 22 years later how could any MU fan not be upset?

WarriorInNYC

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #189 on: October 13, 2015, 03:22:57 PM »
We could have been true leaders for change if we had manned up, admitted we made a mistake in the past, and then switched to a Greco-Roman type warrior (love the Joan of Arc suggestions some have made in the past).

Are we sure that using a nickname as the Warriors and using Greco-Roman imagery wouldn't be offensive?

Now, I am completely in the boat that previous imagery MU used was very racist (Willie Wampum).  But consider me completely in the camp that if Warriors with the latest logo used is offensive, then Warriors with imagery that relates specifically to ANY group of people should be considered offensive.  (Which IMO is ridiculous)

Galway Eagle

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #190 on: October 13, 2015, 03:27:35 PM »
We had the coolest nickname in college sports. AND it was unique to Marquette. Now we're a johnny come lately to the most common and boring one out there. 22 days or 22 years later how could any MU fan not be upset?

Shockers and ragin cajuns are both cooler and depaul being a catholic school with a demon mascot (especially how it happened) is better as well.  I agree it's a bummer we lost a very unique and awesome nickname beyond our control. A lot of people say what if we'd changed the logo, well then we'd be upset that our generic warrior was no different than sparty or the trojans etc. I'd love to be the golden avalanche or the hilltoppers obviously warrior would be awesome too but our jersies say Marquette, not golden eagles and they didn't say warriors either. 
Maigh Eo for Sam

Galway Eagle

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #191 on: October 13, 2015, 03:31:07 PM »
There is a lot of truth to your post. Well said. But I do not agree with the bolded statement. We did need to apologize. Our choice of mascot was racist, demeaning, and a flat out embarrassment to our university. By mascot, I don't mean the choice of Warriors, I mean the choice to depict the warrior as a Native American. Having white kids dress up as the First Warrior was bad enough but we so far as to have caricatures like Willie Wampum. That is a shameful part of our history, one that the administration should have apologized for.

But they never did. You were right the university tried to white wash the past. It wasn't an apology, it was to hide the embarrassment. We were already ahead of the times by changing a Native American themed mascot. We could have been true leaders for change if we had manned up, admitted we made a mistake in the past, and then switched to a Greco-Roman type warrior (love the Joan of Arc suggestions some have made in the past). We could have created a dialogue on the subject and encouraged the schools with more blatantly offensive mascots to change. Instead, we tried to sweep it all under the rug and pray that people would forget about what had happened in the past. It was childish. We should have kept the Warrior name, just changed the imagery. Sure there would have been some backlash from alumni, but it couldn't have been worse than the backlash that still exists.

All that being said, its been what? 23 years at this point? Warriors is never coming back. If they survived all the withheld donations and angry letters this long, what's going to change in the future? What does b*tching and moaning about it get us? What does tearing down our current mascot get us? Nothing. It just makes us look petty and sad. Why trash your alma mater if the decision your upset about is never going to be reversed? None of the people who made the decision to switch are still in power. It's a completely new administration. Why are we still mad?

I am a Golden Eagle. I wish I could have been a Warrior. I should have been a Warrior. That doesn't mean I'm not proud to be a Golden Eagle.

We offered to change the logo but they claimed the damage was done and any warrior logo would forever associate the university with the willie wampum character. 

If we had done a greco roman logo a bunch of these same old folks would be upset it was like MSU or USC and not unique enough.

Completely agree on this why trash your alma mater and try to create division as if the students of the past 23yrs went to some different university. 
Maigh Eo for Sam

GGGG

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #192 on: October 13, 2015, 03:51:12 PM »
We offered to change the logo but they claimed the damage was done and any warrior logo would forever associate the university with the willie wampum character. 

If we had done a greco roman logo a bunch of these same old folks would be upset it was like MSU or USC and not unique enough.

I don't think that is the case at all.


Completely agree on this why trash your alma mater and try to create division as if the students of the past 23yrs went to some different university. 

No one is trashing their alma mater.  No one is claiming that you went to a different university.  Don't exaggerate.

I guess I don't really expect you to understand, but as I said, it wasn't just about the name.  It was about how the decision was made, who made it, and the grand nickname debacle of a decade ago that just succeeded in getting everyone riled up again.

Galway Eagle

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #193 on: October 13, 2015, 04:01:28 PM »
I don't think that is the case at all.


No one is trashing their alma mater.  No one is claiming that you went to a different university.  Don't exaggerate.

I guess I don't really expect you to understand, but as I said, it wasn't just about the name.  It was about how the decision was made, who made it, and the grand nickname debacle of a decade ago that just succeeded in getting everyone riled up again.

To the first one I swear I found an old article where the head of whatever Indian tribe it was said that. 

To your second point I guarantee I could find at least a handful of statements by you old folks that could certainly be taken as you guys creating a division between the two eras. 

The who and the how I understand being upset at but at this point it looks like the creepy guy who still maintains he was a better couple with a girlfriend from 23yrs ago even though he's having a great time with the current one. 
Maigh Eo for Sam

GGGG

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #194 on: October 13, 2015, 04:12:34 PM »
To the first one I swear I found an old article where the head of whatever Indian tribe it was said that. 

I meant the Greco Roman part of your quote.


To your second point I guarantee I could find at least a handful of statements by you old folks that could certainly be taken as you guys creating a division between the two eras. 

Go ahead.


The who and the how I understand being upset at but at this point it looks like the creepy guy who still maintains he was a better couple with a girlfriend from 23yrs ago even though he's having a great time with the current one. 

That is quite the dickish analogy. 

I am simply disappointed in a decision that my alma mater made 22 years ago.  I am expressing my disappointment IN A THREAD ABOUT THAT DECISION.  That doesn't mean that I don't support them or am proud of them otherwise.

Don't try to make it more than that. 

Litehouse

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #195 on: October 13, 2015, 04:21:46 PM »
There is a lot of truth to your post. Well said. But I do not agree with the bolded statement. We did need to apologize. Our choice of mascot was racist, demeaning, and a flat out embarrassment to our university. By mascot, I don't mean the choice of Warriors, I mean the choice to depict the warrior as a Native American. Having white kids dress up as the First Warrior was bad enough but we so far as to have caricatures like Willie Wampum. That is a shameful part of our history, one that the administration should have apologized for.
The First Warrior wasn't a white kid dressed up.  It was Mark Denning, a native-American student at the time, and the logo was his profile.  I knew him while I was at Marquette during the nickname change, and he didn't have a big problem with it at the time.
http://fox6now.com/2013/12/04/man-who-was-face-of-marquette-warriors-shares-take-on-mascot-debate/
If we would have just changed the logo in 1994 it would have been fine.  Unfortunately things weren't handled that way, and instead of just changing it, they picked a really bland, generic nickname, and then a lame chicken-hawk mascot, so now we're stuck in the position we're in today.  We also screwed up the Warrior resurrection/Gold issue, which is too bad, because I think the Gold would have worked.  We really don't have a nickname anymore, so why not just stick with the color.

Spotcheck Billy

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #196 on: October 13, 2015, 04:29:15 PM »
We had the coolest nickname in college sports. AND it was unique to Marquette. Now we're a johnny come lately to the most common and boring one out there. 22 days or 22 years later how could any MU fan not be upset?

a lot of cool nicknames in college without even stooping to the Banana Slugs, I've always thought both Demon Deacons and Blue Devils in Baptist/Pentecostal country took balls

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #197 on: October 13, 2015, 04:31:49 PM »
The First Warrior wasn't a white kid dressed up.  It was Mark Denning, a native-American student at the time, and the logo was his profile.  I knew him while I was at Marquette during the nickname change, and he didn't have a big problem with it at the time.

Apologies, I got my Marquette mascots mixed up. It wasn't first Warrior but before Willie Wampum.
TAMU

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omni77

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #198 on: October 13, 2015, 05:21:28 PM »
The First Warrior wasn't a white kid dressed up.  It was Mark Denning, a native-American student at the time, and the logo was his profile.  I knew him while I was at Marquette during the nickname change, and he didn't have a big problem with it at the time.
Being the old f**t Warrior that I am, I need to respectfully correct you on this. The First Warrior was introduced at a game in the 1979-80 season and he was a Native American student named Cliff LaFramboise (sp?). Good guy. He knew how to perform the traditional Native American dances, and he practiced them with us (pep band drum section). The local tribes agreed to donate an authentic, traditional costume for him to wear, except they were late getting it ready and Cliff didn't actually have it in his hands until he showed up at the MECCA the night of his 'unveiling'. With his pre-game intro and associated hoopla literally only 30 minutes away, Cliff's girlfriend frantically grabbed me by the arm and pulled me into what I think was a janitors closet they had given him as a dressing room. Cliff was standing there looking very distraught in nothing but his underwear, and an assorted collection of leather pieces, laces and feathers was lying on the floor. He looks at me with shear panic in his eyes and says "How do I put this thing on?". I look at him and say "Dude, I'm a white Polack from the South Side. You're asking me?". Somehow he figured it out in the nick of time and his grand introduction actually went fairly well. True story, swear to God.   

Jay Bee

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Re: 22 years ago today...
« Reply #199 on: October 13, 2015, 10:44:39 PM »
I came in a Warrior (nh) and will always be a Warrior We are the Marquette Warriors.

Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.