Futbol Talk

[MUfan12]

I'm pissed, but I'm saving the real outrage for when Sunil keeps his job and nothing changes.

The rot goes deeper than Arena. Or Jurgen. It's a failure at all levels to establish any sort of footballing philosophy or style. Time to blow it all up.

[B. McBannerson]

Hate to break it to ya buddy, but the Netherlands didn't qualify either.

May I suggest Iceland? (Or of course Colombia too)

I know, that's why I used the reference.  Netherlands was basically out over the weekend, had to win by 7 goals tonight.  They were officially eliminated 8 hours before the US was.

[mu03eng]

I'm pissed, but I'm saving the real outrage for when Sunil keeps his job and nothing changes.

The rot goes deeper than Arena. Or Jurgen. It's a failure at all levels to establish any sort of footballing philosophy or style. Time to blow it all up.

The fact that players still have to pay to play in high level club levels is insane and part of the problem. The entire development program needs to be reworked. Additionally, someone needs to look at the senior team and find the heart that was at least a corner stone of the program...other than a few people, the passion just wasn't there.

Taylor Twellmen is 100% correct, if Iceland can figure this out why can't we? I mean for god sake, CONCACAF is the easiest region to qualify from and it's not close. How are we out of the World Cup in 2018 and wasting at least one cycle of Pulisics WC prime is just awful.

Lastly, we need to have courage to make big changes and be able to move on. You will not find a bigger fan of Tim Howard than me, the man is an absolute legend.....but when it's gone it's gone, we have to be able to acknowledge that and move on. Howard(and to a lesser extent Guzan) is directly responsible for this WC with some poor work in the net and bad goals surrendered.

I think I'm even more mad this morning than I was last night. That may be because Sanil still has a job.

[tower912]

It is Derrick Wilson's fault.   

[WarriorInNYC]

The fact that players still have to pay to play in high level club levels is insane and part of the problem. The entire development program needs to be reworked. Additionally, someone needs to look at the senior team and find the heart that was at least a corner stone of the program...other than a few people, the passion just wasn't there.

Taylor Twellmen is 100% correct, if Iceland can figure this out why can't we? I mean for god sake, CONCACAF is the easiest region to qualify from and it's not close. How are we out of the World Cup in 2018 and wasting at least one cycle of Pulisics WC prime is just awful.

Lastly, we need to have courage to make big changes and be able to move on. You will not find a bigger fan of Tim Howard than me, the man is an absolute legend.....but when it's gone it's gone, we have to be able to acknowledge that and move on. Howard(and to a lesser extent Guzan) is directly responsible for this WC with some poor work in the net and bad goals surrendered.

I think I'm even more mad this morning than I was last night. That may be because Sanil still has a job.

I actually think Asia is easier to qualify in, but that's beside the point.  This is such a complete embarrassment.

On GK, I don't see how Sean Johnson did not receive one qualifier call-up.  The guy has been in incredible form this season, much more so than Guzan or Howard.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

The fact that players still have to pay to play in high level club levels is insane and part of the problem. The entire development program needs to be reworked. Additionally, someone needs to look at the senior team and find the heart that was at least a corner stone of the program...other than a few people, the passion just wasn't there.

Taylor Twellmen is 100% correct, if Iceland can figure this out why can't we? I mean for god sake, CONCACAF is the easiest region to qualify from and it's not close. How are we out of the World Cup in 2018 and wasting at least one cycle of Pulisics WC prime is just awful.

Lastly, we need to have courage to make big changes and be able to move on. You will not find a bigger fan of Tim Howard than me, the man is an absolute legend.....but when it's gone it's gone, we have to be able to acknowledge that and move on. Howard(and to a lesser extent Guzan) is directly responsible for this WC with some poor work in the net and bad goals surrendered.

I think I'm even more mad this morning than I was last night. That may be because Sanil still has a job.

Iceland isn't a great example. They are so small that it actually is easier to coordinate and build a development program there than in a place as large and decentralized as the United States. Don't get me wrong, Iceland's accomplishment is incredible.  But a better example would be Germany as Twellman pointed out.

Until MLS, US Soccer and the development programs get on the same page, this program isn't going to grow.

[jsglow]

I don't follow soccer much but I have to believe this will result in a complete housekeeping of US soccer.  Let's hope so at least.

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

I don't follow soccer much but I have to believe this will result in a complete housekeeping of US soccer.  Let's hope so at least.

I would like to think so, but I think the basic problem is that everyone involved in soccer in this country has different short-term goals and objectives.  They have not been willing to sacrifice for the long-term before.

[JWags85]

I actually think Asia is easier to qualify in, but that's beside the point.  This is such a complete embarrassment.

On GK, I don't see how Sean Johnson did not receive one qualifier call-up.  The guy has been in incredible form this season, much more so than Guzan or Howard.

Iceland qualifies in Europe and finished on top of a group with Croatia, Ukraine, and Turkey, but otherwise, sure.

[WarriorInNYC]

Iceland qualifies in Europe and finished on top of a group with Croatia, Ukraine, and Turkey, but otherwise, sure.

I'm not following.  What does Iceland have to do with my previous post?

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Iceland qualifies in Europe and finished on top of a group with Croatia, Ukraine, and Turkey, but otherwise, sure.

Croatia is a realllly good soccer team. Modric, Rakitic, Perisic, and Mandzukic are all very good players.

[JWags85]

I'm not following.  What does Iceland have to do with my previous post?

I misread, I thought for some reason you thought Iceland qualified through Asia, and I was like wtf...

Croatia is a realllly good soccer team. Modric, Rakitic, Perisic, and Mandzukic are all very good players.

100% agree.  I was bringing them up to highlight Iceland didn't have a cake group.  All 3 teams I listed are decent to very good teams.  Croatia, Ukraine has some studs, and Turkey has some talent and road games there are brutal.

[WarriorInNYC]

I misread, I thought for some reason you thought Iceland qualified through Asia, and I was like wtf...

Ok, gotcha, haha.

[brewcity77]

A few things lean out as reasons for this...

• MLS: While MLS has given us a much better league, it has done just as much to provide opportunity to other CONCACAF players. Many of the players involved in our downfall were also products of our own league. However the real MLS problem is that for a long time, we didn't see players coming through the system and matriculating successfully to the national team. Instead, MLS brought back our best European players (Dempsey, Bradley, Altidore, Howard) before their best days were done and had them playing at a lower level than they were capable of. The complacency allowed by competing at that level hurt their ability to turn it up to the next level. Instead of looking across the pitch at players from Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras, and other nations that couldn't get a kick in Europe but did well in MLS, they see peers and not players they are at a higher level than.
  
• Youth Failures: We missed out on two consecutive Olympics. The talent level just isn't there in the age groups that would've played in those Olympics. Look at the roster, then look for players aged 23-28. There are only 4 players in that age range, which is essentially the age a player is in their prime. Yedlin never played for the U23s, Jozy didn't in the 2012 run-up. Wood and Villafana only got 3 combined games for the 2012 U23s. That 2011-12 U23 team is a void. The 2015-16 team is doing a bit better, with Acosta, Arriola, and Morris in the mix, but it's largely another empty talent pool. I don't count Nagbe, who was never eligible as a USA U23. The upside is both the U-20 and U-17 teams this year have been impressive in their respective World Cups.
  
• Management Issues: Jurgen, Bruce, and Sunil all shoulder some blame. Had Jurgen got one point out of his two matches, we're in Russia. Sunil held on too long to a coach that lost his team shortly after WC 2014. The writing was screaming on the wall after Klinsmann's Gold Cup, but Gulati wouldn't listen. Instead, Klinsmann lost the first two crucial qualifiers against our two toughest rivals. It put Bruce behind the 8-ball, though he still should've qualified. Zero away wins when we played the likes of Panama, Honduras, and T&T? That's embarrassing.
  
• Age: Not only is the 24-28 age range bereft of talent, but we are very, very old. 14 of our 23 players on the roster last night were 30+. Now that we're out of 2018, how much of this current roster will still be involved when we next play a meaningful match at the 2019 Gold Cup? What about for 2022? Not only that, how is youth not being served? Guzan is our youngest keeper at age 33. Up front, both Dempsey and Wondo are still there at age 34.
  
• Disparate Culture: There's so much pay-to-play at the youth levels. As you go up, many of these kids are playing for college scholarships, which is a completely disorganized youth system compared to other countries. We're starting to develop better academies, but in a country so spread out, we need more of a concentrated effort from the top down. Each state should have programs to train and identify talent. Grassroots teams that can identify and funnel their best and brightest. This is the one place where Klinsmann might have really helped, sadly, he stuck around too long as manager, which led to his firing and prevented him from fully installing a German type system.

It's hard to be optimistic right now. 2022 is so far away. I suppose the upside is that Pulisic will then be fully in his prime as a 24-year-old. Josh Sargent will likely have started to come of age. But it's so long off. What a complete and utter disaster. This should have never, ever happened. Total disgrace from the top down. It's time to start developing skill, running

[MU82]

Wait ... the U.S.A. has a men's soccer team?

But seriously, folks ...

I'm old enough to remember the genuine excitement when the Cosmos got Pele, Chinaglia and Beckenbauer in the mid-1970s. I even still have Pele's autograph somewhere in one of my boxes of collectables. The popular thought process was: "More and more American kids are playing soccer; it's inevitable that soccer will become the most popular spectator sport in the U.S. when all of the kids grow up and want to watch the game they played as kids."

[Galway Eagle]

So now who is everyone rooting for? I have my two Irish teams. Who do you all have?

[mu03eng]

A few things lean out as reasons for this...

• MLS: While MLS has given us a much better league, it has done just as much to provide opportunity to other CONCACAF players. Many of the players involved in our downfall were also products of our own league. However the real MLS problem is that for a long time, we didn't see players coming through the system and matriculating successfully to the national team. Instead, MLS brought back our best European players (Dempsey, Bradley, Altidore, Howard) before their best days were done and had them playing at a lower level than they were capable of. The complacency allowed by competing at that level hurt their ability to turn it up to the next level. Instead of looking across the pitch at players from Panama, Costa Rica, Honduras, and other nations that couldn't get a kick in Europe but did well in MLS, they see peers and not players they are at a higher level than.
  
• Youth Failures: We missed out on two consecutive Olympics. The talent level just isn't there in the age groups that would've played in those Olympics. Look at the roster, then look for players aged 23-28. There are only 4 players in that age range, which is essentially the age a player is in their prime. Yedlin never played for the U23s, Jozy didn't in the 2012 run-up. Wood and Villafana only got 3 combined games for the 2012 U23s. That 2011-12 U23 team is a void. The 2015-16 team is doing a bit better, with Acosta, Arriola, and Morris in the mix, but it's largely another empty talent pool. I don't count Nagbe, who was never eligible as a USA U23. The upside is both the U-20 and U-17 teams this year have been impressive in their respective World Cups.
  
• Management Issues: Jurgen, Bruce, and Sunil all shoulder some blame. Had Jurgen got one point out of his two matches, we're in Russia. Sunil held on too long to a coach that lost his team shortly after WC 2014. The writing was screaming on the wall after Klinsmann's Gold Cup, but Gulati wouldn't listen. Instead, Klinsmann lost the first two crucial qualifiers against our two toughest rivals. It put Bruce behind the 8-ball, though he still should've qualified. Zero away wins when we played the likes of Panama, Honduras, and T&T? That's embarrassing.
  
• Age: Not only is the 24-28 age range bereft of talent, but we are very, very old. 14 of our 23 players on the roster last night were 30+. Now that we're out of 2018, how much of this current roster will still be involved when we next play a meaningful match at the 2019 Gold Cup? What about for 2022? Not only that, how is youth not being served? Guzan is our youngest keeper at age 33. Up front, both Dempsey and Wondo are still there at age 34.
  
• Disparate Culture: There's so much pay-to-play at the youth levels. As you go up, many of these kids are playing for college scholarships, which is a completely disorganized youth system compared to other countries. We're starting to develop better academies, but in a country so spread out, we need more of a concentrated effort from the top down. Each state should have programs to train and identify talent. Grassroots teams that can identify and funnel their best and brightest. This is the one place where Klinsmann might have really helped, sadly, he stuck around too long as manager, which led to his firing and prevented him from fully installing a German type system.

It's hard to be optimistic right now. 2022 is so far away. I suppose the upside is that Pulisic will then be fully in his prime as a 24-year-old. Josh Sargent will likely have started to come of age. But it's so long off. What a complete and utter disaster. This should have never, ever happened. Total disgrace from the top down. It's time to start developing skill, running

One of my biggest concerns is that there will be no "meaningful" US men's national team matches until the summer of 2019 and the stuff the whole country pays attention to (World Cup) is 5 years away. I fear that big a gap with soccer out of the mainstream eye will put a hole in the youth ranks similar to what the 2012-2016 that's causing all of these issues. Ten years from now do we have another big gap?

I can't stress enough how detrimental the pay for play model is for the US right now. Granted it was even worse in the 90s when I was coming up in ODP and club teams in Chicago, but I had very talented teammates on my club team that had to switch to lesser clubs because they couldn't afford the travel and/or club fees, etc. The problem isn't that talent isn't going to soccer in the US, it's that we aren't inviting and retaining the talent into soccer in the US. Until US soccer can figure out a way to stand up a full academy system in every state that reduces the barriers to access, we are going to continue to be a second tier world power.

[mu03eng]

So now who is everyone rooting for? I have my two Irish teams. Who do you all have?

Have to go with my heritage, Die Mannschaft

[TinyTimsLittleBrother]

I'd like to see a first time winner.  So the best chance is probably Belgium.  If the bracket falls right, Poland or Portugal have a puncher's chance.

But I think the chances for each of them are pretty small.

[brewcity77]

So now who is everyone rooting for? I have my two Irish teams. Who do you all have?

Poland (heritage) and the other CONCACAF teams.

[JWags85]

the other CONCACAF teams.

I can't bring myself to do that.  Costa Rica maybe.  But I'd rather root for nobody than El Tri.  And Honduras plays the dirtiest soccer in the region, and after the bush league hacking at Pulisic and others in the second half of the match on Friday, Panama can shove off as well.

My second team after the US has always been the Netherlands and id really enjoyed Chile last cup, so 2018 is going to extra suck.  Ive really enjoyed watching Iceland play for the last 4-5 years, they have a fearless attacking style and never played the cautious, hope for a counter style of some of the tiny countries.  However, now that the US is out, you're already seeing the sentiment and social media trends towards Iceland, so thats going to be a crowded boat.

I'll likely support Belgium as they are a great team to watch and our partner company and good friends are in Antwerp.

[brewcity77]

I can't bring myself to do that.  Costa Rica maybe.  But I'd rather root for nobody than El Tri.  And Honduras plays the dirtiest soccer in the region, and after the bush league hacking at Pulisic and others in the second half of the match on Friday, Panama can shove off as well.

I get it, but the better CONCACAF does, the better rated the teams we will regularly play will be. Helps us all around. Get a few deep runs, say 3 teams in the last 16 and 2 in the quarters and it gives us a better claim for more bids in the future, especially when they restructure the bids in 2026. Shouldn't matter to us that year as we'll probably be hosting, but still will benefit the Confederation in the long run.

Besides, we've seen plenty of dirty play from African (cough, GHANA, cough), South American, and other teams in recent years, no reason to think that CONCACAF teams are that much worse, we just dislike them more because we see them more frequently.

[brewcity77]

Baby Nats just as disappointing today. Went behind in the 3rd minute against Colombia, equalized before the half, but had absolutely zero offensive effort in the second half. Hackworth waited far too long to make subs and by the time they started pushing forward, they were 3-1 down and relegated to the drawing of lots to determine if they will go through in 2nd or 3rd place after Ghana blasted India 4-0.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Poland (heritage) and the other CONCACAF teams.

Poland too.  Because of my in-laws.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

ZiggysFryKid is a u12 keeper.  2030 is a lock.