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Author Topic: Hey, Cranky guys.......  (Read 3478 times)
tower912
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« on: October 29, 2010, 06:46:18 AM »

You know who you are, 65, Willie, Avenue.    Are your complaints specifically about Buzz?    If so, please take this opportunity to lay out exactly what it is about Buzz that makes you so angry.  Do you think he is not a good coach, recruiter, just plain wrong for MU?  Is it about the state of MU basketball?    Give us the w's and h about what upsets you and what you would like to see done.    Is it short term frustration about not signing more top 100 prospects this recruiting cycle?   What should be done differently?   What should Buzz do that he isn't to land more impact bigs?   Is this just an extension of how you are in the rest of your life?    Thats OK, too.   So, let 'er rip here in one easily found thread. 
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MUWarrior4Life
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2010, 06:50:36 AM »

You know who you are, 65, Willie, Avenue.    Are your complaints specifically about Buzz?    If so, please take this opportunity to lay out exactly what it is about Buzz that makes you so angry.  Do you think he is not a good coach, recruiter, just plain wrong for MU?  Is it about the state of MU basketball?    Give us the w's and h about what upsets you and what you would like to see done.    Is it short term frustration about not signing more top 100 prospects this recruiting cycle?   What should be done differently?   What should Buzz do that he isn't to land more impact bigs?   Is this just an extension of how you are in the rest of your life?    Thats OK, too.   So, let 'er rip here in one easily found thread. 

+1 Exactly
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KipsBayEagle
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2010, 07:04:05 AM »

This thread got started nice and early.
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Jacks DC
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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2010, 07:48:48 AM »

Of the things you mention, I am cranky only because we just missed out on three really good recruits.  But I have to admit that I really didn't expect to get any of them.  I'm sure Buzz is doing absolutely everything he can.  The problem is that there are hundreds of other really good coaches out there doing the same.

Other contributing factors include the fact that I hate my job, my hair is getting grayer by the day, I am a Vikings fan, and my rent is way to much.  I feel better now.  Thanks.
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willie warrior
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2010, 08:01:16 AM »

OK, I'll take a stab.(Halloween talk)

No, I have nothing against Buzz. I think he has done a very good job.

I love MU Basketball, and have since about 1955--no Eddie Hickey was not my idol, but Don Kojis was. Best coach of course was Al, then Hank.

No complaints about the program--just want it to continue to move up. That must be done by recruiting quality players, which we have been doing, except for a stud Center or Power Forward.

I have followed the ups and downs of the program for a long time, and see an opportunity to see it up for a while as long as we get good players. I want the Team to win some BEast championships, not just get 10 wins each year and finish 5 through 7--although that is better than what DePaul is doing.

I do not believe that we as fans should accept mediocrity in the Program. The administration has upgraded facilities, budget etc. since the days of Majerus, and that is great. Hell, I saw somewhere that Buzz has a private Jet for recruiting. We are nearly where we should be--which is again being an elite program. If Syracuse can do it, we should believe that we can do it, and expect it. Same with Villanova and Pittsburgh

My current frustration lies with this class starting out slowly. Yes we did get a committment from Anderson, but we need to land at least two top 100's each year, and we must land quality bigs. We had about 10 studs on our early list, and landed none of them. My only hope there for a big is that Gardner will be a major surprise.

I cannot tell you what Buzz is doing or not doing to land some quality bigs, because I am not in that game. That is his job. If Gardner pans out, then we are on the way, but he must be given the opportunity. If we are going to consistently compete for titles it will have to be with some quality bigs, not with 6'5" guys like Hayward playing the post. No slam to him--not his position.

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mviale
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2010, 09:00:32 PM »

OK, I'll take a stab.(Halloween talk)

No, I have nothing against Buzz. I think he has done a very good job.

I love MU Basketball, and have since about 1955--no Eddie Hickey was not my idol, but Don Kojis was. Best coach of course was Al, then Hank.

No complaints about the program--just want it to continue to move up. That must be done by recruiting quality players, which we have been doing, except for a stud Center or Power Forward.

I have followed the ups and downs of the program for a long time, and see an opportunity to see it up for a while as long as we get good players. I want the Team to win some BEast championships, not just get 10 wins each year and finish 5 through 7--although that is better than what DePaul is doing.

I do not believe that we as fans should accept mediocrity in the Program. The administration has upgraded facilities, budget etc. since the days of Majerus, and that is great. Hell, I saw somewhere that Buzz has a private Jet for recruiting. We are nearly where we should be--which is again being an elite program. If Syracuse can do it, we should believe that we can do it, and expect it. Same with Villanova and Pittsburgh

My current frustration lies with this class starting out slowly. Yes we did get a committment from Anderson, but we need to land at least two top 100's each year, and we must land quality bigs. We had about 10 studs on our early list, and landed none of them. My only hope there for a big is that Gardner will be a major surprise.

I cannot tell you what Buzz is doing or not doing to land some quality bigs, because I am not in that game. That is his job. If Gardner pans out, then we are on the way, but he must be given the opportunity. If we are going to consistently compete for titles it will have to be with some quality bigs, not with 6'5" guys like Hayward playing the post. No slam to him--not his position.


Who can disagree with this - just win baby
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avid1010
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2010, 09:50:23 PM »

Who can disagree with this - just win baby

I disagree with the fans getting on Buzz for this recruiting class for so many reasons.  If you think there's a coach out there willing to come to MU more capable than Buzz state that solution, if not, why complain?  I've always been impressed with the way Buzz recruits.  If our AD had the same mentality that Willie has I'm guessing Buzz would jump at the first opportunity he had to land a similar job.  Then there's the entire issues of "stars" pertaining to recruiting.  Our three top returning scorers didn't have "stars" attached to their names when they came to MU.  There's been plenty of evidence posted on this site about how difficult it is to say "stars" translate to wins.  I'm fine with judging Buzz on wins and losses.  I think it's ignorant to judge him on his recruiting based upon how many "stars" he's recruited.  If you want to put performance standards on Buzz, that's fine, but don't do it based upon recruiting class rankings...last I checked they still play the games.
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MuMark
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2010, 10:26:34 PM »

How quickly people forget. Syracuse has missed the NCAA twice since we have been in the BE....We have made it every year.

We finished higher in the Big East standings then Syracuse in 2009,2008,2007,and 2006.

We finished higher then Villanova in 2007 and 2008.

We haven't had the one break out season yet but wow ..........

At least you admitted we were doing better then Depaul....... Roll Eyes

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jtrash37
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2010, 11:00:23 PM »

How quickly people forget. Syracuse has missed the NCAA twice since we have been in the BE....We have made it every year.

We finished higher in the Big East standings then Syracuse in 2009,2008,2007,and 2006.

We finished higher then Villanova in 2007 and 2008.

We haven't had the one break out season yet but wow ..........

At least you admitted we were doing better then Depaul....... Roll Eyes




+1,000,000
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mug644
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« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2010, 01:39:08 AM »

How quickly people forget. Syracuse has missed the NCAA twice since we have been in the BE....We have made it every year.

We finished higher in the Big East standings then Syracuse in 2009,2008,2007,and 2006.

We finished higher then Villanova in 2007 and 2008.

We haven't had the one break out season yet but wow ..........

At least you admitted we were doing better then Depaul....... Roll Eyes

I agree, and I've been thinking about Villanova since we joined the BEast. It seems--from my recollection--that their overall BEast record, including where they ended up in the standings and how they've done in the BEast tournament, is not really all that different from MU's. But, again from my recollection, they have been picked higher possibly every year. So, one might say that MU has actually been more impressive in terms of BEast results.

But, Villanova has consistently done better in the NCAA tournament. MU has yet to make it to the Sweet Sixteen, and Villanova seems to regularly get there.

Perhaps NCAA results really do outweigh conference results when it comes to perceived success?
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StillAWarrior
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« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2010, 06:20:45 AM »

I disagree with the fans getting on Buzz for this recruiting class for so many reasons.  If you think there's a coach out there willing to come to MU more capable than Buzz state that solution, if not, why complain?

I'm getting so tired of this attitude.  So, if the team lays an egg in a game this year, "if you think there's a coach out there willing to come to MU more capable than Buzz, state that solution, if not, why complain."  If Buzz makes a bone-headed decision at the end of a game, "if you think there's a coach out there willing to come to MU more capable than Buzz, state that solution, if not, why complain."  They can complain if they want.  This is a message board where people have an opportunity to say what they want about the team.  For some people (me included) not everything goes 100% perfectly 100% of the time.  They can comment about that here if they want (or "complain" as you put it).  And just because they "complain" about something doesn't mean that they want Buzz replaced.  Hell, it doesn't even mean that they don't think Buzz is the best person for the job.

Believe me, for some people it's just as annoying to hear people say, "quit complaining" as it is for you to hear the complaining.  When you say, "quit complaining" you might as well go ahead and type, "keep your opinions to yourself."  This is a message board...not gonna happen.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 06:22:43 AM by StillAWarrior » Logged

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willie warrior
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« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2010, 07:39:09 AM »

I'm getting so tired of this attitude.  So, if the team lays an egg in a game this year, "if you think there's a coach out there willing to come to MU more capable than Buzz, state that solution, if not, why complain."  If Buzz makes a bone-headed decision at the end of a game, "if you think there's a coach out there willing to come to MU more capable than Buzz, state that solution, if not, why complain."  They can complain if they want.  This is a message board where people have an opportunity to say what they want about the team.  For some people (me included) not everything goes 100% perfectly 100% of the time.  They can comment about that here if they want (or "complain" as you put it).  And just because they "complain" about something doesn't mean that they want Buzz replaced.  Hell, it doesn't even mean that they don't think Buzz is the best person for the job.

Believe me, for some people it's just as annoying to hear people say, "quit complaining" as it is for you to hear the complaining.  When you say, "quit complaining" you might as well go ahead and type, "keep your opinions to yourself."  This is a message board...not gonna happen.
Plus 1 trillion
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avid1010
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 07:40:53 AM »

I'm getting so tired of this attitude.  So, if the team lays an egg in a game this year, "if you think there's a coach out there willing to come to MU more capable than Buzz, state that solution, if not, why complain."  If Buzz makes a bone-headed decision at the end of a game, "if you think there's a coach out there willing to come to MU more capable than Buzz, state that solution, if not, why complain."  They can complain if they want.  This is a message board where people have an opportunity to say what they want about the team.

You're exactly right, and I have no problem with what you're saying.  It's fun to play Monday Morning Quarterback, and play out different solutions to different situations.  My problem is people like Willie making comments demanding better recruiting success.  Then saying that they don't have the answer for how MU can do better, that's not their job, but it should just happen because they demand it.  If someone wants to say Buzz should foul at the end of a game up 3 that debate makes sense, demanding that Buzz sign at least two 4 or 5 star recruits per year is pointless on so many levels..  Chico's has suggested Buzz not go the JUCO route so much, that's worth debating, and he's offering a solution.  Not to mention the demands being made don't even coorelate with wins/losses.  I've posed the question to Willie MANY times, if Buzz doesn't meet your demands what do you propose???
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 07:51:03 AM by avid1010 » Logged
willie warrior
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2010, 07:56:01 AM »

How quickly people forget. Syracuse has missed the NCAA twice since we have been in the BE....We have made it every year.

We finished higher in the Big East standings then Syracuse in 2009,2008,2007,and 2006.


Pick and choose, pick and choose.
Somebody asked me a question, I answered it and you try to slam it.

We could sit here all day and compare MU to Syracuse--their program has been more successful. You pick your stats and I will pick mine:
Last year 30-5. year before 28-10
Last year conference: 15-3
32 20 win seasons under Baywhine; 5th all time in wins; 4 final 4's; 3 sweet 16's in last 6 years; yada, yada
The point is there is no reason our program cannot be as successful as Syracuse's, except that they have had continuity with their coaching people, we have not.
I want us to win BEast titles and consistently make sweet 16's. And no I am not a Syracuse butt boy.

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brewcity77
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« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2010, 08:24:34 AM »

The point is there is no reason our program cannot be as successful as Syracuse's, except that they have had continuity with their coaching people, we have not.
I want us to win BEast titles and consistently make sweet 16's. And no I am not a Syracuse butt boy.

I'm with you, but I think unfortunately that to get what you want, it will take a lot of waiting. First, we need Buzz to hang a Big East banner, either regular season or tournament, in the Bradley Center rafters. Next, we need to get to the Sweet 16 a few times, with at least an Elite 8 mixed in. And we need to do it consistently.

Say in the next 5 years, I'd say we need at least 3 Sweet 16's and one Elite 8 or Final Four on the resume. And we need Buzz to continue to stay committed to the program, not start sniffing out at other jobs that open up. We have had seasons as successful and more successful than seasons Syracuse has had, but the difference is that Boeheim is always there, a constant presence. The guy has been there for more than 30 years. Buzz simply can't build that kind of reputation and earn that kind of influence in 2 years.

I agree that we can be as successful as Syracuse. But to get there will take years, and probably decades. Not that we couldn't get a Sweet 16 this year, or challenge for a national title in 2-3 years, but to really "get there" like I think you want we'll have to prove it over and over for a decade or so before we can consider ourselves to have arrived.
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Marquette84
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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2010, 02:03:13 PM »


And we need Buzz to continue to stay committed to the program, not start sniffing out at other jobs that open up. We have had seasons as successful and more successful than seasons Syracuse has had, but the difference is that Boeheim is always there, a constant presence. The guy has been there for more than 30 years. Buzz simply can't build that kind of reputation and earn that kind of influence in 2 years.


Its not necessarily the coach sniffing out other jobs thats a problem, its other programs sniffing the coach.  It is off-the-charts naiveté to think that other programs only consider coaches who are interested in them.  

MU didn't sit around and wait for Sean Miller or Tony Bennett to "sniff around" for the job--we were proactive and went out looking for them.  Think the rumors that we were after those two coaches may have given Washington State or Xavier recruits something to think about?  Neither Xavier nor Washington State landed a top 100 RSCI recruit in 2009--the year after MU came calling.

Furthermore, other coaches are putting fear, uncertainty and doubt into the heads of 18 year olds.  I know people don't like to hear this, but this is the argument we're up against:

"Nick, I've been at Maryland, my alma mater, for 21 years and I'm not going anywhere.  Buzz Williams is a great coach at Marquette, but he's only been there two years and over a 20 year career he's never stayed in one place longer than four.  Look at his track record.

"Because he's a great coach, he will get big-time offers, perhaps even beginning after this season--before you arrive on campus. Its up to you if you want to take the chance that he'll still be at Marquette when you graduate.  But I'll be here at Maryland."


Right now Buzz has zero credibility with recruits in countering these arguments.  He has to receive (and turn down) offers consistently over the next two or three years in order to have a believable story that he's here for the long haul.  

The kook-aid drinkers will interpret that as anti-Buzz, but its a fact that Buzz hasn't yet received the offers to turn down. Until he starts receiving (and turning down) overtures from other programs, we're going to lose out on recruits who are susceptible to arguments like the one above.

What would accelerate the process is if Texas or A&M needed a coach next year and backed up the Brinks truck to lure Buzz--and Buzz says no.  Next best would be an offer from another ACC or SEC school--say a Clemson, Georgia Tech, Alabama etc--also turned down by Buzz.



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tower912
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« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2010, 02:25:50 PM »

It was reported that Iowa and Oregon (State?) were sniffing around last year. 
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« Reply #17 on: October 30, 2010, 02:33:01 PM »

The kook-aid drinkers will interpret that as anti-Buzz, but its a fact that Buzz hasn't yet received the offers to turn down. Until he starts receiving (and turning down) overtures from other programs, we're going to lose out on recruits who are susceptible to arguments like the one above.

What would accelerate the process is if Texas or A&M needed a coach next year and backed up the Brinks truck to lure Buzz--and Buzz says no.  Next best would be an offer from another ACC or SEC school--say a Clemson, Georgia Tech, Alabama etc--also turned down by Buzz.

I agree completely. Right now, I think he'd stay. I'd like to think that Buzz is the upstanding guy he presents himself as and will stay loyal. But whether those jobs and offers come or not, it will take continuity and success to reach the heights of being a perennial power. When you think about the teams that are regularly in the top 10-15, teams like Duke with Coach K, Michigan State with Izzo, UNC with Smith and continuing to Williams, Syracuse with Boeheim, Connecticut with Calhoun, Georgetown with the Thompsons, the list goes on. But that kind of continuity takes decades to build.

I think the level we should first aspire to is that of Villanova. After a downturn in the 1990s, Jay Wright has brought them into the upper echelon of college basketball. Six straight tournament appearances, four Sweet 16s, two Final Fours, and now that he's built some continuity, they are regularly being regarded as a top program again. But that took Wright a few years to build. There's no reason Buzz can't do the same, but it will take years before he can really put that kind of reputation together. Unfortunately for us the fans, all we can do is wait.
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« Reply #18 on: October 30, 2010, 02:33:53 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Oregon wanted him.

So thats at least 1.

I seriously doubt MU lost Faust because he was afraid Buzz would leave.

Maryland is his hometown school. He grew up rooting for them. They play in a great conference and have a coach that has won a NC.

Aren't those good enough reasons?
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GOMU1104
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« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2010, 02:38:45 PM »

I'm pretty sure that Oregon wanted him.

So thats at least 1.

I seriously doubt MU lost Faust because he was afraid Buzz would leave.

Maryland is his hometown school. He grew up rooting for them. They play in a great conference and have a coach that has won a NC.

Aren't those good enough reasons?


Not to mention theres significantly more immediate PT available at Maryland.
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mileskishnish72
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« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2010, 02:40:47 PM »

I don't think I'm a "cranky guy," and on an overall basis I think Buzz has been great for the program diring the short time he's been here. I think that he has gotten out of his players what he could - both years. The recent recruiting trough is disappointing, but I don't perceive that recent results are related to lack of effort on Buzz's part. I feel confident that good use will be made of the two available spots before next summer. If I do have one concern about his helmsmanship, it relates to end-game strategy. There have been a couple of successes, but there have been a couple of occasions when we grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory. My hope is that he is sincere when he states that he'd like to be here "as long as they'll have me" and that this (somewhat minor) blot on his report card will be extirpated with increased experience.
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Marquette84
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« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2010, 04:14:32 PM »


I seriously doubt MU lost Faust because he was afraid Buzz would leave.


Because we all know that players are never concerned about coaching changes.  They would never go so far as to do something as drastic as requesting release from an LOI if something as insignificant as a coaching change took place

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avid1010
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« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2010, 08:10:39 AM »

I don't think I'm a "cranky guy," and on an overall basis I think Buzz has been great for the program diring the short time he's been here. I think that he has gotten out of his players what he could - both years. The recent recruiting trough is disappointing, but I don't perceive that recent results are related to lack of effort on Buzz's part. I feel confident that good use will be made of the two available spots before next summer. If I do have one concern about his helmsmanship, it relates to end-game strategy. There have been a couple of successes, but there have been a couple of occasions when we grabbed defeat from the jaws of victory. My hope is that he is sincere when he states that he'd like to be here "as long as they'll have me" and that this (somewhat minor) blot on his report card will be extirpated with increased experience.

+1....I don't think we rate his effectiveness with this recruiting class until they've been at MU for a year or two.  For all we know Anderson turns into a stud, and/or Buzz finds some diamonds in the rough, transfers, etc. 
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StillAWarrior
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« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2010, 08:32:54 AM »

+1....I don't think we rate his effectiveness with this recruiting class until they've been at MU for a year or two.  For all we know Anderson turns into a stud, and/or Buzz finds some diamonds in the rough, transfers, etc. 

I agree, but you have to be very careful on this board when you suggest that it's a good idea to wait a year or two (or five) before rating the effectiveness of something.  Some people here think you should be able to rate things upon the first good or bad sign.  Some might suggest that if you're waiting two years to rate the effectiveness of a recruiting class that you hate that class.

It's OK to be disappointed that we've missed out on many of our targeted recruits, thrilled that we have Anderson, excited about the team as a whole, etc, all at the same time.
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