Father Wild & Buzz

[Lennys Tap]

I'll stay consistent....so far so good but will make my full evaluation after year 4 or 5.  I do not think he was a homerun hire as the first post stated. 

He's done very well with Crean's players and I love. Butler and DJO.  Jury is out on Williams, Buycks, bigs, etc.

But so far so good.

I'll also stay consistant....Buzz has done a far better job coaching TC's recruits than Crean himself did. He's also a better recruiter and a better guy. Game, set, match.

[MUBurrow]

To be completely honest, there is an inverse phenomenon to "You don't know what you've got till its gone." and its something like "You don't know what you could have until you've got it."

What I mean is that when the initial Buzz hire was made, I was actually concerned about how well he seemed to represent the identity of the institution.  I was concerned that the administration overlooked the negative effects the hire would have on the success of the program in favor of a popular guy who would say all the right things.  So now that we have both (a relatively successful program with the promise of more to come AND a great representative for the university) it looks like a great hire.  So far so good, but my appreciation of the representative Buzz is at MU would fade if we saw 5 straight losing seasons.

[4everwarriors]

His ass won't be here 5 seasons into losing.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Just to be clear, I did not say he was a homerun hire.  I said... "Looking back, I told him I thought Buzz was as close to a homerun hire as we could have hoped for and that the hiring committee and specifically Father Wild should be commended for making the hire."

Sorry LW, I was reading your initial post an iPhone.  You are correct.  My apologies.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'll also stay consistant....Buzz has done a far better job coaching TC's recruits than Crean himself did. He's also a better recruiter and a better guy. Game, set, match.

Perhaps.  Although I'd like to know on what premise you say this.  Do you think last year under Crean MU would not have won the same number of games and gone to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament?

I think you're wrong if you believe that, but whatever.

As far as a better recruiter, at the end of this season Crean will have been responsible for the number 1, number 3, number 5, number 8, number 11 and number TBD (Lazar) all time leading scorers in MU history (this doesn't even include Dwyane Wade, either).  Also the #2, #3, & #7 all-time assist leaders.  The number 1, 4 & 10 all time steals leaders.  The best 3 point shooter in school history.  The 5th & 7th best shot blockers in school history.   

We'll see where Buzz's guys rank out over the course of history.  So far so good, but as much as Crean is bashed as a recruiter, it's amazing how many quality players he got for us.  Also amazing how many NCAA tournaments we went to considering how poor of a coach he was.

To stay consistent with your analysis Lenny, if Buzz is a better recruiter and better game coach, then MU should do BETTER under Buzz than Crean.  That's a tall order.  I hope you're right, but that HAS TO BE THE CONCLUSION based on your analysis.

[Pago Warrior]

The Buzz hire has worked out VERY well for MU!  He has done well with the players he inherited, he has recruited high major talent, he's coaching is improving and as a face of the program he has become known as someone the school can be proud of.  Buzz has exceeded expecations.

I disagree with those who are stuck on the "process" being flawed.  There was a process in place; there were more recognizable names we sought as first, second and third options but were turned down.  Buzz was not first priority but after the first options were no longer viable ones, we "settled" for Buzz.  For a position like this, after you keep swingin' n missin' with your first 3 options, the longer you keep searching, the more you seem desparate as a program.  I'm glad we "settled".  He has turned out to be a good hire.

[Norm]

I'll admit that I'm still on the fence about hiring Buzz.

On the plus side, I like the fact that he gets his team to play hard every game, they have over-achieved thus far as to where the talent level would indicate they should be, and he seems to have a great work ethic. He also has come out with some good game plans this year to pull off some upsets.

On the negative side, I wish he would develop more of a bench and play more guys in early season games to get some experience, I wish he would use time outs better during games, and I'm not sure about his ability to work younger guys into the program. I also might be one of the few who thinks he comes off as a little too goofy in some of his radio interviews and sometimes puts down his players too much.

If Butler and DJO pick up their games even more next year and he can work the younger players into the lineup and develop an 8-9 man bench then I'll feel much more comfortable about the hire.

[Coleman]

I'll admit that I'm still on the fence about hiring Buzz.

On the plus side, I like the fact that he gets his team to play hard every game, they have over-achieved thus far as to where the talent level would indicate they should be, and he seems to have a great work ethic. He also has come out with some good game plans this year to pull off some upsets.

On the negative side, I wish he would develop more of a bench and play more guys in early season games to get some experience, I wish he would use time outs better during games, and I'm not sure about his ability to work younger guys into the program. I also might be one of the few who thinks he comes off as a little too goofy in some of his radio interviews and sometimes puts down his players too much.

If Butler and DJO pick up their games even more next year and he can work the younger players into the lineup and develop an 8-9 man bench then I'll feel much more comfortable about the hire.

+1.

Also agree with the analysis on Crean vs. Buzz by Chicos. If Buzz is better, will go to the postseason every year (and more often than not, the NCAA rather than the NIT) and average 20 wins, and make a Final Four somewhere in there. Can Buzz do this? Again, so far so good. But that's a pretty tall order. As much as Crean bugged me for lots of reasons, he did great things for MU, and let's not forget that.

[war1980rior]

I like both Chicos and Lenny's remarks about the difference between Crean and Buzz.  I've been watching MU since I was accepted in '75.  Had a great freshman indoc into the program in '77.  I liked Crean for getting us back onto the national picture, helping us into the BE, and keeping the program on an upswing.  We had a lot of exciting moments under Crean.  When Tom left, he became dead to me, and I feel the same way about him now as I did for IU when they defeated my new school in the '76 tournament.  A fitting place for him to go as a new version of Benedict Arnold.  Buzz' hire worried me a little to say the least, but if I was so smart, Fr Wild would have asked my advice (he didn't, by the way).  The one thing I liked was Buzz was a recruiter.  When your winter highs are usually in single digits, you need a real good one.

I've always been one to support those that I work for and those that work for me.  Only way to have a chance at winning, so it was support Buzz and keep my mouth shut for while.  Now I'm real glad I did.  At this point, we have a diamond in the rough.  He's recruiting very well (not perfect, but on an upswing).  His coaching is not an easy job.  A lot of complaining over the lack of playing time for this guy or that, use of timeouts, etc...  Really folks, we've complained about everybody's coaching except Al's.  I'm willing to bet if the boards were around back then, a few of his T's would have been heavily scrutinized. 

Bottom line is Buzz is doing very well.  At this point, I couldn't be happier that we are extremely likely to finish with 10+ wins, and the experts predicted we would be content with six or seven - and no NIT bid.  Buzz seems to have a knack to motivate and gel young self-centered egotistical teens into unselfish men.  If he takes on a "project," at this point I have to trust him.  He finds solid talent where few saw it (Jimmy Butler for example).  Our season has got to make some kids in high school look our way, as the team on the floor is one that is always the underdog and either wins, or makes the other team earn it.  Pure character led by upperclassmen who play beyond what the critics think they can.  Leadership starts at the top, and Buzz is doing a great job.  I like him a lot better than Crean, and (sorry don't start a rant on this) I liked Crean.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'll admit that I'm still on the fence about hiring Buzz.

On the plus side, I like the fact that he gets his team to play hard every game, they have over-achieved thus far as to where the talent level would indicate they should be, and he seems to have a great work ethic. He also has come out with some good game plans this year to pull off some upsets.

On the negative side, I wish he would develop more of a bench and play more guys in early season games to get some experience, I wish he would use time outs better during games, and I'm not sure about his ability to work younger guys into the program. I also might be one of the few who thinks he comes off as a little too goofy in some of his radio interviews and sometimes puts down his players too much.

If Butler and DJO pick up their games even more next year and he can work the younger players into the lineup and develop an 8-9 man bench then I'll feel much more comfortable about the hire.

Very fair analysis, and I agree 100%.

I'm not "in love" with Buzz yet, but I like him so far and I'm optimistic for the future.

Also, even if MU was bad this year, I wouldn't "hate" Buzz. I really think it takes 3-5 years to evaluate any coach.

[Lennys Tap]

Perhaps.  Although I'd like to know on what premise you say this.  Do you think last year under Crean MU would not have won the same number of games and gone to the 2nd round of the NCAA tournament?

I think you're wrong if you believe that, but whatever.

As far as a better recruiter, at the end of this season Crean will have been responsible for the number 1, number 3, number 5, number 8, number 11 and number TBD (Lazar) all time leading scorers in MU history (this doesn't even include Dwyane Wade, either).  Also the #2, #3, & #7 all-time assist leaders.  The number 1, 4 & 10 all time steals leaders.  The best 3 point shooter in school history.  The 5th & 7th best shot blockers in school history.   

We'll see where Buzz's guys rank out over the course of history.  So far so good, but as much as Crean is bashed as a recruiter, it's amazing how many quality players he got for us.  Also amazing how many NCAA tournaments we went to considering how poor of a coach he was.

To stay consistent with your analysis Lenny, if Buzz is a better recruiter and better game coach, then MU should do BETTER under Buzz than Crean.  That's a tall order.  I hope you're right, but that HAS TO BE THE CONCLUSION based on your analysis.

Last year's team was 23-4, 12-2 in Big East play and #8 in the polls when DJ went down. Numbers only reached once during Crean's tenure - the final 4 team. Do I think TC could have done that with last year's group? No chance. You predicted MU to finish 9-9 in the Big East. At 12-6 (probably14-2, at least 13-3 without DJ's injury) Buzz blew away your prognostication. This year we are on the NCAA bubble with a team picked for 12th place BEFORE injuries to JR and OTule and Maymon's defection. Do I think TC could have done that with this year's group? No chance. Again, if I'm not mistaken you thought a 10-8 Big East record (prior to injuries and defection) would mean Buzz was Coach of the Year (don't remember if that was National or Big East). So by your own expectations Buzz has overachieved big time in each of his first two years. At most TC overachieved 3 times in his 9 years and in retrospect (as we now know Wade is the best current NBA player to play in college) the number is more fairly 1. Coaching advantage = cleary to Buzz.

As regards recruiting I am not a "Crean basher". However I'm not as seduced as you are by numbers skewed by an inordinate amount of 3 or 4 year starters that became the rule with TC's uneven recruiting.

Tom Crean had a .664 winning pct. at MU. In 9 years he went to 5 NCAA's and 3 NIT's. He was 7-8 in postseason and advanced past the 1st round in the NCAA tournament once. I don't know if Buzz will ever make the final 4 (Wade was a once in a lifetime perfect storm scenario) but I do believe his record will prove superior to Crean's in every other measurable way.

[MUBurrow]

Last year's team was 23-4, 12-2 in Big East play and #8 in the polls when DJ went down. Numbers only reached once during Crean's tenure - the final 4 team. Do I think TC could have done that with last year's group? No chance.

Why?

[ChicosBailBonds]

No chance?  LOL

Please explain.  I'd like to hear this.  Especially when you compare other years to other teams....each year is different.  To compare other teams is beyond ridiculous.  Last year's team was senior laden and there is nothing to suggest the previous regime doesn't get the same results.

[LastWarrior]

No chance?  LOL

Please explain.  I'd like to hear this.  Especially when you compare other years to other teams....each year is different.  To compare other teams is beyond ridiculous.  Last year's team was senior laden and there is nothing to suggest the previous regime doesn't get the same results.

Well first of all, under Crean... Wes probably doesn't have as good of year and DJ doesn't turn into a PG and buy into the team philosophy.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Well first of all, under Crean... Wes probably doesn't have as good of year and DJ doesn't turn into a PG and buy into the team philosophy.

How do we know that?

The truth is, we don't know anything, so any speculation is probably more based upon everybody's biases rather than any actual facts.

[LastWarrior]

How do we know that?

The truth is, we don't know anything, so any speculation is probably more based upon everybody's biases rather than any actual facts.

Speculation sure, but it's based off of their first three years at MU under Crean and then their performance with one year under Buzz.

[MR.HAYWARD]

why is it speculation for three years Wesley was barely an option in a set based offense that had Wes standing around trying to force feed the ball to Jerel as the #1 option and usually DJ or LAzar as option #2 and #3.  Also, crean's 'brilliance" tried to turn Dj into a SG #1 option in his sophomore year.  Similply a terrible mis assement trying to make him a shooter/scorer.  Buzz got him to understand that his best opportunity to be great and to make his team great was to be a great defender and a great distrbutor.  Crean never saw it that way and tried to make DJ a  SG, which hurt Dj and the team.

[warthog-driver]

How do we know that?

The truth is, we don't know anything, so any speculation is probably more based upon everybody's biases rather than any actual facts.

Thank God there is no room for speculation on this board!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Speculation sure, but it's based off of their first three years at MU under Crean and then their performance with one year under Buzz.

hmmm... I know where you are going, but I think it's just too hard to say.

Jerel didn't become MU's all-time leading scorer because Buzz was at MU for 1 season. He was a great player for 4 years. Same can be said for Wes.

All 3 of them seemed to get a little better each season, and each seemed to have their best season their senior year. Is that because of Buzz Williams, or because they worked very hard and improved each year? (with assistance from the coaching staff).

Steve Novak had his best season as a senior. Is that because TC suddenly became a better coach, or because Novak improved each year and was at his best as a senior? Was it because the DJ joined the team?

Robert Jackson transferred to MU and had his best year as a senior. Was TC responsible for that? Not really. I think RJ was physically at his best as a senior because he worked his a** off and had other great players around him.

[Henry Sugar]

What a stupid, idiotic conversation... that I am delighted to join.

The year before Buzz took over, the team was ranked the entire year.  They reached as high as #10 (mostly early in the season) and spent the latter part of the season ranked in the twenties.

#1 - it's not that crazy to think that the team could have been better and ranked just as high the following season when all three players were seniors. 

The year before Buzz took over, the team was better statistically than they were when Buzz was coach.  2008 overall ranking (#11).  2009 overall ranking (#19).  Also, the team was a lot better defensively the year before Buzz was coach (#10 in 2008; #51 in 2009).  They were, however, better offensively under Buzz (#24 in 2008; #9 in 2009)

#2 - In some measures, the team got worse under Buzz than they were under Crean.  In some measures, they got better.

Here are Matthew's efficiencies from his Freshman year through his Senior Year.  (99.1, 106.1, 111.2, 116.8).  Anyone else notice a trend?  The key difference, however, is the increase in possessions under Buzz (22.5%, 22.2%, 20.1%, 24.7%).  Of course, Matthews was still getting plenty of possessions under Crean too.

#3 - Matthews would have still gotten better by the same amount, but the difference is that Buzz used him more.

====

Now, lest I be accused of being a Crean lover or a Crean hater or a Crean anything, my point is that the team was pretty good the year before their senior season, so it's not crazy to think that Matthews would have still been good and that team would have still done good things.  The team would have just looked different with most likely equivalent results.

Also, I like Buzz more than Crean.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Thank God there is no room for speculation on this board!

Speculation? Yes.

Saying things like "It was Buzz who got DJ to understand how to be a PG" is a little too wild for me. Really? We know that? DJ looked like the same player with some improved decision making skills and better shot selection.

I mean, how the F do assign that credit to Buzz? Maybe DJ matured as a player. Certainly good coaching can foster that maturity, but ultimately the player has to mature in the decision making category.  

Buzz should take the blame for Jerel's lack of decision making ability senior year, right? Same thing, no?

Should Crean get sole credit for Robert Jackson having his best year as a senior? Probably not. He certainly helped Rob, but RJ was a good player when he stepped on campus.

I'm not saying Buzz deserves NO credit, I'm just saying that the 4 seniors and Lazar would have been a pretty good team no matter if it was TC or Buzz coaching.

Let's not anoint Buzz quite yet. I really like him, but lets not forget the amount of talent last year's team really had.

[RawdogDX]

Also, I like Buzz more than Crean.

Hey! stick to numbers sugar.  We don't keep you around for your opinions.

[Lennys Tap]

Why?

Crean accomplished a similar start once in 9 years and that was in a WAY weaker conference. All he needed to do it was 2 outstanding bigs (Jackson and Merritt), 2 NBA players (Diener and Novak) and the 3rd greatest player in the world (Wade). Last year's team (playing in what some called the toughest conference EVER) was MUCH less talented than that group.

That's why.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well first of all, under Crean... Wes probably doesn't have as good of year and DJ doesn't turn into a PG and buy into the team philosophy.

Why do you say that?  Almost every senior under Crean had awesome years.  Steve Novak's senior year made him a NBA player.  He was not a NBA player before his senior year.  Travis Diener became a NBA player as a result of his senior year.  This is what seniors do, they play like seniors.  I suspect Wes would have had a terrific senior season last year....as good, who knows.

What I'm interested in is understanding what games we would have lost as a result of the previous regime coaching.  I'm sorry, but I don't see any differences.  EVERY one of our wins last year with the exception of two were by at least 5 points and most by double digits.  The two that weren't were the Wisconsin game and NC State game.  Now, perhaps Lenny is going to argue that we would have lost that Wisconsin game.....which would be interesting since we won at Madison the year prior.

Go line by line of the games we won and lost last year, I don't know how any reasonable person can say, "Yeah, that game there that we won we would have lost instead" without it being heavily doused in bias and hatred and not one iota of historical fact.

Lenny is right in his stats about the overall record, the NITs, etc, of course that also includes the first two years which were rebuilding years but he knows that.


Last Year's Results Game By Game
http://kenpom.com/team.php?y=2009&team=Marquette

[tower912]

..."almost every senior under Crean had awesome years"......
Townsend, Merrit, Grimm, Chapman, Lott, Kinsella, MJax,
Hmmmm.     The only players who had good senior years under Crean who played here 4 years are Henry, Novak and Diener (cut short).    And about that list of players who left rather than finish their career under Crean.      Bradley, Mason, Menard, Howard, Odartey, Matthews, Christian, Bell, Amo, Mort.     Hmmmm, again.    I liked Crean.    I don't suffer unnatural man-love for Crean.