Is it over for DePaul?

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	Marquette				Marquette Madness Date/Time: Oct 15, 2010? TV: MUTV Wiki entry for 2010-11
	22-12

[Detfan23]

Let me begin by saying that I am not trying to mock DePaul or start an arguement.  My simple questions is "Is it over for DePaul?"

What I mean is that I just don't see them ever really competing in the Big East.  They just seem like a lost program.  It doesn't seem like the university is that concerned with them, the student body doesn't seem concerned, and they can't protect their own backyard when it comes to recruiting. 

There is some solid history at DePaul, but I just don't ever see them coming back until the University gives a darn again. Any thoughts?

[MUunderpants]

Agreed.  The University remains apathetic to the men's basketball program and if they choose to remain uncommitted it will continue to suffer. 

[Knight Commission]

It is not over as long as they stay in the BE. However they will have more losing seasons than winning in the near future. We need easy wins in this conference.

We depend on DePaul's demise, however. The last time MU and DePaul were in the NCAA tournament in the same year was 1982, and only six times in our history.

Generally speaking when DePaul is good we are not. When we are good, DePaul is not. Its partly because we played them twice a year, and we used to recruit from the same talent pool

[Skatastrophy]

Heh, I posted a similar thread in the Superbar barely 1 minute before you.  It seems that you got my memo on what our talking points were today

Here's what I had to ask:
In C-USA DePaul would always give us a run for our money.  Ever since we've moved to the Big East they haven't been able to put together a respectable team.

Do they have problems recruiting?  Is their coach a disaster?  Have they been decent recruits that just don't produce when they get to University?  What's up with them?

The DePaul rivalry should be a pretty big one because we're geographically close to each other and because they're a Catholic University.  It seems like that rivalry has started to wane because they can't seem to put together a team.  Has anyone been following them enough to give me the quick low-down on why we (MU) are flourishing in the Big East and DePaul seems to be drowning?

[Marquette84]

It is not over as long as they stay in the BE. However they will have more losing seasons than winning in the near future. We need easy wins in this conference.

We depend on DePaul's demise, however. The last time MU and DePaul were in the NCAA tournament in the same year was 1982, and only six times in our history.

I'm glad somebody else recognizes this.  Otherwise, it wouldn't be long before we get the slew of "An improved DePaul will be better for us" nonsense.

A better DePaul has NEVER been good for Marquette.  It sucks media coverage, recruits, and excitement right out of our program. I don't think its a coincidence that our worst performing period of the modern era came at the very time that DePaul was experiencing its best period.  And that our resurgence came as DePaul returned to irrelevance.

The Big East will have its doormat every year, and I'm perfectly happy with DePaul serving that role.

[Marquette_g]

Is there any concern though with their not being a football school that the Big East thinks about looking another direction? 

I would assume not given the access to the Chicago media market, but ND does that to an extent already. 

[willie warrior]

It is a shame at what DePaul currently is in Basketball. They had some great teams in the 80's. Their current state does help us from the standpoint of recruiting the Chicago area.

But it would be better that they were more competitive.

Man, they had some great teams back in the day with guys like Aguirre, Bradshaw, Comegys, etc.

[dpu70]

DePaul is floundering.  It has gone through 3 Coaches in 10 years.  Each was able to recruit for 1 year and 1 year only.  Each coach also had their own agenda that ruined their stay with the University.  Call them "Bad Hires", or what ever.  But, we have not recruited the best available Coach, and it has shown.

This Coach, I am sure is gone, and not too soon.  The team has given up, and he cannot get it back.  He has also recruited less than BE caliper players with the exception of Tucker and Koshwal.  He has NO connections with the Chgo Pub Lg, and is largely shut out in recruiting locally.

It's a pretty dismal state.  And the unfortunate thing is we have only 1 scholarship in each of the next 2 years.  Even with a new Coach, he can't recruit to quickly get back into step.

We will be a doormat for a while.  Boy, have we crashed.

[MR.HAYWARD]

It's really too bad Depaul has two outstanding players in Tucker and Koshwal,  MU would be scary good with Koshwal but with him being 6'10" he was not in Tommy Naismith's recruiting scope. 

With them being sophomores you would almost like to see Wainwright be given a chance with them as Juniors but it seems the team has quit on him and that makes that probably pretty unlikely. 

[mu_hilltopper]

In C-USA DePaul would always give us a run for our money. 

Not quite right .. We've owned DePaul for 20 years.   Our CUSA record against DePaul .. 20-5.

And yeah .. the Big East NEEDS 3-4 doormat teams.  I agree w/MU84. I'm perfectly happy with DePaul filling that role.

[RawdogDX]

DePaul is floundering.  It has gone through 3 Coaches in 10 years.  Each was able to recruit for 1 year and 1 year only.  Each coach also had their own agenda that ruined their stay with the University.  Call them "Bad Hires", or what ever.  But, we have not recruited the best available Coach, and it has shown.

But were those coaches nice guys, all people you'd want to hang out with?  Or were they arrogant dicks, because that is how some people think coaches should be judged, not on winning, or graduating players, or not racking up NCAA violations.

[Skatastrophy]

It looks like sports writers feel sorry for DePaul too

[Niv Berkowitz]

In a perfect world, it's great if DePaul AND MU are forces, similar to Michigan and Michigan State. But...unlike those two state universities, Marquette and DePaul have many more factors going against them.

- both are private
- both are located in urban areas where there's a huge competiton for players
- both are located in states where there's only one truly dominant D-1, state university (U of I, UW-Madison)

So far, MU has been able to land much better local, midwest talent (the Big Three) than DePaul. And, it appears that MU has done better at becoming a player outside its comfort zone (south, east coast).

Can it happen? Can both MU and DePaul be equally successful? Anything's possible, but for both, I think a ton has to break in - as of today - DePaul's way. They have to out-recruit not only MU, but also the state schools in the region.

Maybe DePaul leaves the BEast and Memphis joins instead? Just a thought.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

It's really too bad Depaul has two outstanding players in Tucker and Koshwal,  MU would be scary good with Koshwal but with him being 6'10" he was not in Tommy Naismith's recruiting scope.   

While (somewhat) true, there were some MAJOR academic issues with him and character problems with his "handlers" as to why never got a serious shot with him.  I'll leave it at that.

But back to the main topic here, as someone who's Dad was a DePaul alum, and grew up going to DePaul games, they've got some fundamental problems with their program going back DECADES that I don't know if they have the ability or willingness to fix.

Number one is the culture of the university.  DePaul is focused on being the biggest Catholic university of the country.  They don't see basketball as being a major cog in this.  Instead, they've invested substantially in expanding the campus, increasing enrollments, improving their academics, etc.

Two, related to the culture, in so aiming to build the biggest Catholic university in the country, there's no cohesive campus and thus campus community.  Very few students are concentrated specifically on the Lincoln Park campus, and the rest are scattered all over the rest of the city and commute in from the suburbs.  It's much like UWM in that respect, and when you don't have your students all concentrated in one small geographic area or in dorms (a la Marquette), it's difficult to build a community feel.  

Three, facility-wise, they're a disaster, and there's no easy way out of it.  They built their practice facility just a few years too early when compared to a place like the Al.  Plus, the Allstate Arena is now nearly 30 years old, and is REALLY starting to show it's age.  While the United Center is closer to campus for their student body, it's very difficult to get there from the suburbs, plus their lease terms there were awful when they played a few games there in the late '90s.  There's no room on campus to build a medium-size arena, a la Pitt, and I believe they turned down an option to buy the Children's Memorial Hospital adjacent to their campus, and soon to be vacated.

Clearly right now, a lot of their problems are just accented further by the awful coaching of Wainwright, but there's talent there, and they can get talent in there from just about anywhere when they're respectable (Sammy Mejia, Draelon Burns, Quemont Greer, Dar Tucker, Wilson Chandler all came there from outside the Chicago area).

We were fortunate that DePaul insisted on dragging us along with them in the late 80s and early 90s into the MCC, Great Midwest, and CUSA.  However, we are just as lucky that we have had individuals like Bill Cords and Fr. Wild that have insisted on pulling us to the highest level possible, a great alumni base that has ponied up the tens of millions it has taken to strengthen all our athletic programs and build the Al, and had an NBA arena just blocks from campus. It seems though, that DePaul is going to require an even more herculean effort than that to revive itself, and without a change in leadership and philosophy in the administration of the university, and the financial resources to do that, even being in Chicago, it won't happen.  

[tower912]

Interstingly, the DePaul alumni I know count on me for updates about their program and don't seem all that interested in my answer after they ask the question.   That may capture DePaul's basketball issues in a nutshell.

[freshjive2103]

Do they have problems recruiting?  Yes - Gary DeCesare believes that Chicago has extremely overrated talent and that the better players are on the East Coast or Europe and are just diamonds in the rough for the most part
Is their coach a disaster?  Jerry is a disaster, but the bigger disaster is their complete coaching staff. DeCesare, and Ramon Williams do nothing but sit during the games, and Scott Wainwright would have trouble getting an assistant coaching job at a low major.
Have they been decent recruits that just don't produce when they get to University?  They produce, but they have absolutely no structure in their game. Jerry lets his "stars" do as they please and will not get on them as it will bruise their ego
What's up with them? We (DePaul Fans) are waiting for Jerry to get fired and then voice that we expect that the new coach brings DePaul into being competitive in the Big East. An apathetic mindset towards men's basketball will not be accepted by DePaul fans and donations will reflect that if the apathy continues.

You can see how DePaul fans feel by looking at www.bluedemonsnation.com message board or www.firejerrywainwright.com (look at the guestbook).

[Marquette65]

The general's post is right on.  However no program wins w/o talent.  DuPaul, as to the Chicago Public league has never really recovered form the " Teddy Grubbs" matter.  that plus the inability of the Public league kids to qualify.

DuPaul was able to recruit the Northeast but that has dried up.  They got bradshaw, strickland, comogys etc from new jersey, Philly area.

[freshjive2103]

The general's post is right on.  However no program wins w/o talent.  DuPaul, as to the Chicago Public league has never really recovered form the " Teddy Grubbs" matter.  that plus the inability of the Public league kids to qualify.

DuPaul was able to recruit the Northeast but that has dried up.  They got bradshaw, strickland, comogys etc from new jersey, Philly area.

DePaul did seem to make a positive move back to getting in CPL graces with the 1998 class; Lance Williams, Bobby Simmons and Quentin Richardson. However, it was a short rebirth.

[Tom Crean's Tanning Bed]

What's up with them? We (DePaul Fans) are waiting for Jerry to get fired and then voice that we expect that the new coach brings DePaul into being competitive in the Big East. An apathetic mindset towards men's basketball will not be accepted by DePaul fans and donations will reflect that if the apathy continues.

The question I have, though, is whether DePaul has a major donor that will pony up on the athletics side of things and push for changes in the athletic department.  MU's always had a few guys floating around the edges (ie Dick Strong), plus a committed alumni base that's willing to donate if called upon (like with The Al).  Not a Phil Knight that is going to buy and sell everything within the university, but I'm just curious if there's anyone that's willing to throw some money down to improve the program.

[freshjive2103]

The General,

There are two donors that have really stepped forth in the past for athletics, but one of them is really focused on the basketball side. However, I do not think it is an endless stream of money.

[4everwarriors]

Once DePaul University makes the necessary commitment to basketball, you'd be surprised how quickly it can turn around especially in a city with talent like Chicago. But yes, it takes money and commitment on the school's part just as it happened at MU.

[77ncaachamps]

Do they have problems recruiting?  Yes - Gary DeCesare believes that Chicago has extremely overrated talent and that the better players are on the East Coast or Europe and are just diamonds in the rough for the most part

As much as I'd like to disagree (since MU needs the Chi-town preps to do well), I can't.

Houston and Texas, in general, (where Buzz likes to pull players from) is THE hoops hotbed, with the D.C. area as a comparable competitor.

[freshjive2103]

As much as I'd like to disagree (since MU needs the Chi-town preps to do well), I can't.

Houston and Texas, in general, (where Buzz likes to pull players from) is THE hoops hotbed, with the D.C. area as a comparable competitor.

Kind of funny because of what I am gonna relate; Rumor has it that a former DePaul assistant felt that Jerel McNeal was a garbage type recruit and so long as DePaul landed players like Rashad Woods, things would be good for DePaul. Yea... how did that turn out. Funny because Woods is from Houston and McNeal of course is from Chicago area.

[bma725]

Do they have problems recruiting?  Is their coach a disaster?  Have they been decent recruits that just don't produce when they get to University?  What's up with them?

The answer to all those is yes.  Wainwright isn't getting many top flight kids, and the highly ranked kids he does get look terribly coached and don't live up to the hype.

[MDMU04]

Once DePaul University makes the necessary commitment to basketball, you'd be surprised how quickly it can turn around especially in a city with talent like Chicago. But yes, it takes money and commitment on the school's part just as it happened at MU.

Imagine the potential reversal of fortunes had DePaul been the school that decided to roll the dice on Dwyane Wade instead of MU.

I'm not saying his presence here was the sole reason for the turnaround that happened.  I think there is no doubt that it served to accelerate things, however.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/tourney03/2003-04-03-marquette-bold_x.htm

That article is a good read...as is this one

http://www2.jsonline.com/sports/marq/apr03/136593.asp

I don't recall exactly when the "final push" for the Al officially began, but I believe it started right after the game against UK in the Elite Eight and ended shortly after the NCAA tournament was completed.  $4.5M in a couple weeks is a lot of money for any program to raise in a short time.