Chones

[GooooMarquette]

No feel for Tatum. That's like having no feel for Jimmy Butler.

The man was incredible. One guy I wished left with an NCAA title.

Agree - loved Earl.  He likely would have had at least a Final Four if the tournament didn't put the two best teams in the same region back then.  Indiana and MU were the clear #1 and #2 teams in the country in '76, but they played in the Mideast Regional Final In Baton Rouge.  Bummer.

Back to Chones, he was the most dominant player in MU history and led the team to a 50-1 record.  I have a hard time holding his early departure against him, since Al was the one who told him to go. 

[Goose]

I love Earl Tatum but his number should not have been retired. Back to Chones, 1000% his number should be retired and should have been decades ago.

Wade is the best talent ever to play for MU and second place is open to a lot of discussion. For the young guys, you were not born when second best played at MU. Depending on your taste on type of player you like, there is a very strong argument Chones is second best in school history. He is not number two to me but difficult to argue he is not.

[TedBaxter]

Agree - loved Earl.  He likely would have had at least a Final Four if the tournament didn't put the two best teams in the same region back then.  Indiana and MU were the clear #1 and #2 teams in the country in '76, but they played in the Mideast Regional Final In Baton Rouge.  Bummer.

Earl did start for the 1974 NCAA championship runnerup.

Tatum was the best player for the loaded 1976 team, the best team I personally remember seeing at MU since I don't think I saw the Meminger-Chones team in 1970-71 on TV.

[DoggyDaddy]

I was a freshman in 70-71 and through the dumb luck of the student ticket lottery back then,drew a seat about two rows up from the end of MU bench, behind guys like Dave Delsman. The Meminger-Chones & company team was...well, I don't recall anything so smooth, effective,and beautiful to watch. Al would still get mad when they did not play defense the way he wanted it and would routinely come to the end of bench and kick a chair--once with Delsman still sitting in it! Folks forget that Al loved in-your-face defense and opposing teams could not score once they got close to big Jim the paint. Chones played great defense along with his mid-range jumper and put backs. Though my tickets were not so good in 71-72, that team was deserving of the #1 ranking it held briefly before Chones left toward the end of season. Maurice Lucas was a freshman that year and by rule back then could not play. But one wonders how Lucas may have filled in for him or what a front line of Chones, Lucas, and Larry McNeill might have achieved the following year. And Bo Ellis would have been a freshman.             

[The Lens]

No feel for Tatum. That's like having no feel for Jimmy Butler.

The man was incredible. One guy I wished left with an NCAA title.

In my defense, I was 9 months old when he graduated.  But I know how good that '76 team was.  Seeding back then must have been a joke. 

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

In my defense, I was 9 months old when he graduated.  But I know how good that '76 team was.  Seeding back then must have been a joke.

I don't think seeding existed back then.

[Nukem2]

I don't think seeding existed back then.

Correct.  Seeding of sorts began in 1978 and evolved from there.

[Billy Hoyle]

I don't think McNeal's should be retired - certainly not before Chones.  But if Chones is retired, you might as well put McNeal's name up there.

No to Jarel. Wonderful scorer but never took the team past the first weekend (2 awful decisions on game winning attempts against Stanford). Was really never the best player on the team. Plus, spent way too much time medicated, if you know what I mean.

Didn't Chones come back and graduate a few years ago?

[Galway Eagle]

No to Jarel. Wonderful scorer but never took the team past the first weekend (2 awful decisions on game winning attempts against Stanford). Was really never the best player on the team. Plus, spent way too much time medicated, if you know what I mean.

Didn't Chones come back and graduate a few years ago?

I'm sure a lot of those 70s players were medicated as well

[GGGG]

No to Jarel. Wonderful scorer but never took the team past the first weekend (2 awful decisions on game winning attempts against Stanford). Was really never the best player on the team. Plus, spent way too much time medicated, if you know what I mean.

Didn't Chones come back and graduate a few years ago?

I don't care how much medication he took.

And Chones didn't take MU past the first weekend either.

[Nukem2]

And Chones didn't take MU past the first weekend either.

only because of the phantom charging calls on Meminger.   That's the only game MU lost with him.

[GooooMarquette]

only because of the phantom charging calls on Meminger.   That's the only game MU lost with him.

Yep.  Only game Dean ever fouled out of.

[Billy Hoyle]

I don't care how much medication he took.

And Chones didn't take MU past the first weekend either.

And I'm not advocating Chones have his number retired. Didn't play long enough even if he didn't graduate. I don't think Wade should have had his retired until he (never) graduates.

Diener, Novak and Tony Mlller Andre the only ones who should be in the conversation for retirement and I doubt any will ever see their numbers in the rafters.

[MU82]

I never saw Chones play for MU, as the earliest Marquette memory I have is of the loss to NC State in the 74 title game and he was long gone by then. I did see Chones play in the NBA, where he was a good player for mostly bad teams. (In his next-to-last full season, he did average 8 and 7 in the 1980 Finals for the champion Lakers.)

I will take the word of those a little older than I am who did see Chones play for MU and say he was one of our best 2 or 3 players ever. Y'all have no reason to fib. I'm guessing he was dominant. Given some of the numbers we have retired, I'd have no problem retiring #22. But it doesn't bother me that it isn't retired.

Anyway, here's something for folks to ponder ...

There was a lively thread on The Superbar about Christian McCaffrey opting out of Stanford's bowl game so he could concentrate on his impending pro career. Many thought he was a quitter, a traitor, whatever. Others defended his decision (I was in that camp). Publicly, he had the blessing of his coach. He ended up being the No. 8 overall draft pick and has signed a $17 million contract. His family has money, so he didn't "need" it, but Stanford's bowl game was the Sun Bowl - as meaningless as a game can be.

Chones left a Marquette team that many thought was the best in the country and the best in school history. He left when they were 21-0; without him, MU got creamed by Kentucky in the NCAA second round. His family was dirt poor and he "needed" the money. He ended up receiving a $1.5 million contract from the ABA's Nets, a ton of money at that time. He not only had the blessing of his coach ... McGuire actually told him to take the money. Still, the decision was controversial at the time; leaving early was relatively new, and nobody had done it during the middle of a season.

So, is "quitting" on a championship-caliber team just weeks before the NCAA tournament "worse" than leaving before a "meaningless" bowl game?

It's an interesting conversation. (To me, anyway.)

[Nukem2]

I never saw Chones play for MU, as the earliest Marquette memory I have is of the loss to NC State in the 74 title game and he was long gone by then. I did see Chones play in the NBA, where he was a good player for mostly bad teams. (In his next-to-last full season, he did average 8 and 7 in the 1980 Finals for the champion Lakers.)

I will take the word of those a little older than I am who did see Chones play for MU and say he was one of our best 2 or 3 players ever. Y'all have no reason to fib. I'm guessing he was dominant. Given some of the numbers we have retired, I'd have no problem retiring #22. But it doesn't bother me that it isn't retired.

Anyway, here's something for folks to ponder ...

There was a lively thread on The Superbar about Christian McCaffrey opting out of Stanford's bowl game so he could concentrate on his impending pro career. Many thought he was a quitter, a traitor, whatever. Others defended his decision (I was in that camp). Publicly, he had the blessing of his coach. He ended up being the No. 8 overall draft pick and has signed a $17 million contract. His family has money, so he didn't "need" it, but Stanford's bowl game was the Sun Bowl - as meaningless as a game can be.

Chones left a Marquette team that many thought was the best in the country and the best in school history. He left when they were 21-0; without him, MU got creamed by Kentucky in the NCAA second round. His family was dirt poor and he "needed" the money. He ended up receiving a $1.5 million contract from the ABA's Nets, a ton of money at that time. He not only had the blessing of his coach ... McGuire actually told him to take the money. Still, the decision was controversial at the time; leaving early was relatively new, and nobody had done it during the middle of a season.

So, is "quitting" on a championship-caliber team just weeks before the NCAA tournament "worse" than leaving before a "meaningless" bowl game?

It's an interesting conversation. (To me, anyway.)

Just a different time with the ABA jousting with the NBA.  Once again, Al McGuire was a big part of this.

[4everwarriors]

I'm in da camp of we all go ta college to obtain a skill ta earn a livin'. So, takin' da path of least resistance ta makin' dat livin' makes all da cents in da world ta me, Nads. Gotta admit, didn't always feel dat weigh. But, life's lessons show ya dat money talks and bullchit walks, ai na?

[jsglow]

Good discussion 82.  Here's what I think a big difference might be. 

McCaffrey opted out of the Sun Bowl in an effort to avoid potential injury.  Chones left during the only available window when he announced for the ABA by signing his contract one week before their draft thereby causing the Nets to forfeit their 1st round pick.  What the ABA was trying to do with its February draft was siphon off players from the established NBA and they had publicly announced a willingness to draft underclassmen.  It was all out war between the two leagues with lots of anti-trust stuff going on in the Courts and Congress. And Chones was the monster big prize that year in a new escalation of that war.

I found a February 19, 1972 Chicago Tribune article that discussed the situation.  Here's a link to that day's paper.  The  story appears on p. 149 of the microfilm.  Crazy stuff.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1972/02/19/page/1/article/cage-war-on-again-as-aba-signs-jim-chones/index.html

[GGGG]

Except from the player's perspective, there really isn't a difference.  Both left their teams early to better position themselves for their professional careers.  Some on here labelled McC as a "quitter," but don't seem willing to apply those same labels to Chones (or Traci Carter.)  Really what they did was no different. 

[jsglow]

Except from the player's perspective, there really isn't a difference.  Both left their teams early to better position themselves for their professional careers.  Some on here labelled McC as a "quitter," but don't seem willing to apply those same labels to Chones (or Traci Carter.)  Really what they did was no different.

Disagree Sultan.  The Chones window would have closed for a year within a week.  His decision to continue to play at MU would have absolutely disrupted the $1.5 million sitting on the table in front of him.  The ABA draft was scheduled before the NCAA season ended ON PURPOSE.  Something would have had to happen (an injury) to cost McCaffrey the money in his situation.  And he could have potentially taken out some kind of insurance policy.

I'm not arguing for or against McCaffery's decision but they are in no way equivalent.

[GGGG]

Disagree Sultan.  The Chones window would have closed for a year within a week.  His decision to continue to play at MU would have absolutely disrupted the $1.5 million sitting on the table in front of him.  The ABA draft was scheduled before the NCAA season ended ON PURPOSE.  Something would have had to happen (an injury) to cost McCaffrey the money in his situation.  And he could have potentially taken out some kind of insurance policy.

I'm not arguing for or against McCaffery's decision but they are in no way equivalent.

Yes the Chones situation was more complex, but both voluntarily left their teams mid season for what they felt were in their best interests professionally.  I'm focusing more on the similarity of the actions they faced with their current team.

[Spotcheck Billy]

Good discussion 82.  Here's what I think a big difference might be. 

McCaffrey opted out of the Sun Bowl in an effort to avoid potential injury.  Chones left during the only available window when he announced for the ABA by signing his contract one week before their draft thereby causing the Nets to forfeit their 1st round pick.  What the ABA was trying to do with its February draft was siphon off players from the established NBA and they had publicly announced a willingness to draft underclassmen.  It was all out war between the two leagues with lots of anti-trust stuff going on in the Courts and Congress. And Chones was the monster big prize that year in a new escalation of that war.

I found a February 19, 1972 Chicago Tribune article that discussed the situation.  Here's a link to that day's paper.  The  story appears on p. 149 of the microfilm.  Crazy stuff.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1972/02/19/page/1/article/cage-war-on-again-as-aba-signs-jim-chones/index.html

thanks for sharing that - love this headline on that page "Karem has 53, Bucks Fall". At least they spelled it 'Kareem' in the article.

[Jay Bee]

Yes the Chones situation was more complex, but both voluntarily left their teams mid season for what they felt were in their best interests professionally.  I'm focusing more on the similarity of the actions they faced with their current team.

No. Completely different. McCaffrey could have finished his season with his team and still been in the NFL draft - that is the NORM. Chones had to make a move at a specific time. VERY, VERY different.

[GGGG]

No. Completely different. McCaffrey could have finished his season with his team and still been in the NFL draft - that is the NORM. Chones had to make a move at a specific time. VERY, VERY different.

I have already acknowledged the situations were different.   

But I'm not the one who said things like this, which seem to treat it much more black and white:

The man agreed to play FB in exchange for a scholarship. Don't enter into contracts you're not gonna honor.

You also labelled McC an "unrighteous thief."  Was Chones?

Also, would you have advocated the following wrt Chones?

Clawback scholarship $ & consider immediate expulsion

[Jay Bee]

I have already acknowledged the situations were different.   

But I'm not the one who said things like this, which seem to treat it much more black and white:

You also labelled McC an "unrighteous thief."  Was Chones?

Also, would you have advocated the following wrt Chones?

McCaffrey should be in jail.

Chones' jersey should be retired.

[GGGG]

McCaffrey should be in jail.

Chones' jersey should be retired.

So instead of logic, you went with hyperbole.

Got it.